Papez Pleez


Cops in Scottsdale, Ariz., Now Routinely Ask Suspects for Proof of Citizenship

Staff
AP News

Dec 23, 2007 13:38 EST

Police in suburban Scottsdale have begun routinely asking for proof of citizenship from every suspect they arrest and turning those who are in this country illegally over to federal immigration officials.


ww December 23, 2007 - 8:51pm
( categories: Miscellany )

don't see a problem with this.

Tina December 23, 2007 - 9:11pm

...your birth certificate with you at all times?

Gordon December 23, 2007 - 9:27pm

but I would. I have nothing against immigrants, but they should be here legally.

Tina December 23, 2007 - 9:37pm

If you got mugged with your birth certificate, it could bankrupt you.

Gordon December 23, 2007 - 9:48pm

could use my drivers license or state picture card which both require proof of identification before being issued.

Tina December 23, 2007 - 9:54pm

...in a one of those documents, you are susceptible to being bankrupted and utterly powerless to do anything about it. I promise you, as someone who worked on extremely hi-tech ID cards, they are all fallible. And worse, the more people believe they "work", the easier it is to fool the system.

Staying completely ahead of counterfieters is a fool's errand. You can't do it (the best are never far behind), and you are most susceptible when you think you have done it.

For those of us born in the USA, it all comes back to your birth certificate. Which does not, and cannot have any infallible piece of biometric identification on it. No 20+ year old technology is still state of the art when it's needed.

Finally, the story cited above is about someone who overstayed a visa. None of the 9/11 perpatrators came in illegally. Some of them were here "illegally" because they overstayed visas (the others were legal). Half of the "illegals" currently in this country crossed the border legally and overstayed. Note that your "proof of identification" simply requires that your entrance to the country has not expired. Oh, big comfort.

Documents won't keep you safe, and requiring documents is likely to make you less so.

Gordon December 23, 2007 - 10:20pm

... which, if the need is seen as legitimate, but the action taken seen as ultimately insufficient, what do you suppose the response will be?

I dunno, but moving from papers request upon arrest, related or not to the supposed yet to proved infraction, to papers request upon detention, say, while pulled over for speeding, is not a very far leap.

Then again, they could just taze you first, ask later.

Its always good to note that illegal immigration violations are a civil infraction, not a criminal one. Though that could change. I'd say it falls somewhere in between speeding and being OJ Simpson, depending.

ww December 23, 2007 - 10:34pm

are the solutions? We just let everyone in and say the hell with it? No solution seems perfect but doing nothing is even worse.

Tina December 23, 2007 - 10:40pm

necessarily addressing me, but ... the first step is definitely not to turn an issue of concern into an overblown crisis.

Its a complex issue demanding more than a few paragraphs, and apparently more brain power than currently available in the entire US government.

ww December 23, 2007 - 10:50pm

turning it into a crisis but do believe the govt has the right to know who is in the country. I still do not believe there is anything wrong with officers asking for identification. I don't think there is an easy answer but I am against using biometrics, fingerprinting or barcoding (lol) of citizens.

Tina December 24, 2007 - 3:08am

Police Begin Fingerprinting on Traffic Stops

By Sarah Thomsen

If you're ticketed by Green Bay police, you'll get more than a fine. You'll get fingerprinted, too. It's a new way police are cracking down on crime.

If you're caught speeding or playing your music too loud, or other crimes for which you might receive a citation, Green Bay police officers will ask for your drivers license and your finger. You'll be fingerprinted right there on the spot. The fingerprint appears right next to the amount of the fine.

Police say it's meant to protect you -- in case the person they're citing isn't who they claim to be. But not everyone is sold on that explanation.

"What we've seen happen for the last couple of years [is] increasing use of false or fraudulent identification documents," Captain Greg Urban said.

Police say they want to prevent the identity theft problem that Milwaukee has, where 13 percent of all violators give a false name.

But in Green Bay, where police say they only average about five cases in a year, drivers we talked with think the new policy is extreme.

"That's going too far," Ken Scherer from Oconto said. "You look at the ID, that's what they're there for. Either it's you or it's not. I don't think that's a valid excuse."

"I would feel uncomfortable but I would do it," Carol Pilgrim of Green Bay said.

Citizens do have the right to say no. "They could say no and not have to worry about getting arrested," defense attorney Jackson Main said. "On the other hand, I'm like everybody else. When a police officer tells me to do something, I'm going to do it whether I have the right to say no or not."

That's exactly why many drivers are uneasy about the fine print in this fingerprinting policy.

Police stress that the prints are just to make sure you are who you claim to be and do not go into any kind of database; they simply stay on the ticket for future reference if the identity is challenged.

Tina December 24, 2007 - 3:26am

no papers? jail for you.
wait a minute...
that's wrong. oh wait, habeas corpus has been suspended. never mind.

seriously, arizona is nuts.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/24/az-initiative-targets-anchor-babies/#comment-385152
i mention this post in that comment, and also refer to comment #20 there where someone named ProDem links to an article on routine fingersprinting on traffic stops elsewhere.

this is all as wrong as the line of thinking that goes 'none of these should trouble you if you have nothing to hide'...
it's the principle of the thing.
i have plenty to rightly hide, like my privates. i'm a private citizen and sunshine is for gubmints. not the other way around.

i swear if i was younger and unattached, i'd go join Russell Means...

Zuma December 24, 2007 - 11:43am

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