Well, here we go. This will be interesting.
Two questions and then I’ll leave you to your handwringing about how all secrets should come out. That if you don’t have anything to hide, blah, blah blah.
Do you support closing GITMO? Well, Wikileaks has screwed that up:
Bargaining to empty the Guantánamo Bay prison: When American diplomats pressed other countries to resettle detainees, they became reluctant players in a State Department version of ”œLet’s Make a Deal.” Slovenia was told to take a prisoner if it wanted to meet with President Obama, while the island nation of Kiribati was offered incentives worth millions of dollars to take in a group of detainees, cables from diplomats recounted. The Americans, meanwhile, suggested that accepting more prisoners would be ”œa low-cost way for Belgium to attain prominence in Europe.”
And how about the goal of keeping fissile material out of rogue hands? Well, Wikileaks screwed that up too:
A dangerous standoff with Pakistan over nuclear fuel: Since 2007, the United States has mounted a highly secret effort, so far unsuccessful, to remove from a Pakistani research reactor highly enriched uranium that American officials fear could be diverted for use in an illicit nuclear device. In May 2009, Ambassador Anne W. Patterson reported that Pakistan was refusing to schedule a visit by American technical experts because, as a Pakistani official said, ”œif the local media got word of the fuel removal, ”˜they certainly would portray it as the United States taking Pakistan’s nuclear weapons,’ he argued.”
It’s fine and well to sit on your high horse and talk *tsk* *tsk* about bribery and ethics and morals but the disclosure of these cables will harm your interests. Let me put it this way: do you want to see the US invade Yemen? How can the disclosure of President Saleh of Yemen lying to his own people (and laughing about it) do us any good? How will it do the cause of peace any good at all when it will more than likely destabilize Yemen further and subsequently add momentum to the “do something crowd” in the Beltway? Do you think a Yemen post-Saleh will be less inclined to radical Islam? Do you honestly think these disclosures are going to stop that? This is just one example. See also this post about how this will affect the Department of State’s future behavior, the one department in our government that has, by and large, remained true to our values as a nation.
Look, the US acts terribly on the world stage. Explain to me how leaking the internal deliberations of mostly career diplomats, who are honest, who are trying to do good work, who are trying to advance some goodness in the world is going to change our behavior? Changing behavior starts at home.
If they haven’t got it done by now it wasn’t going to happen.
This is the best, most focused response to Wikileaks that I’ve seen.
We know enough, by any standard, to make the judgments that the Wikileaks material has provided so far. Afghanistan is a disaster. Civilian casualties are part of the process. We should leave just as quickly as circumstances and the safety of those we leave allows (in the strictest terms. What’s with the ongoing paper chase? This is for historians.
Chris Floyd captured the essence of these leaks in terms of outcome at the start. While he modified his stance, he was right from the start. Then the diversion from The Greater Horror was noted clearly, namely the participation of top US officials in illegal war and the consequent death toll.
Now we have a new release. What are the intended and unintended consequences? That’s a legitimate question. But one consequence should not be a diversion from the high level crimes and malfeasance that has produced the detailed material Wikileaks is dumping on the internet.
I don’t see that this has screwed anything up. Carl Levin is on record as saying that the admin simply did not make closing Gitmo a priority. And of course even if they had closed Gitmo, they were in essence just gonna move it to another place where they could argue that the law does not apply.
Fissile material? I don’t see any responsibility for failure with Wikileaks there either. Pakistan isn’t going to go along with the US and hasn’t gone along with the US in three years.
Sunshine is the best disinfectant. I vote for more sunshine, not less.
Granted from a profile I read it seems his style, but if he’s gonna say things with that tone, it’ll piss people off more than a more humble remark. It’s about the method and the system, the endless expressions of elite deviance, which cannot persist in the open.
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Hongpong.com
This I regard as inevitable at any rate. Too much overreach. This is just another stepping stone towards that outcome.
The imperial dominance is no longer beneficial to the American people. So in the sense that this accelerates the inevitable outcome it is a net benefit.
The Guardian
by countries mentioned and where cables originated
Isn’t the exposure of these documents in the same league with Dick Cheney and Company outing Valerie Flame? Except that he’s a Swede, so we can’t try him for treason.
If it’s a lesser sin, please explain how.
The contempt for US foreign policy in comments here seems way too broad-brushed. We are not Satan, and we don’t deserve this kind of exposure. Now that the deed is done, note how we handle it: without assassinating the Wikileaks founder, without cutting off relations with Sweden or bombing one of its offshore islands, in diplomatic briefings to the dozens of countries exposed by all the leaks, and by not even denying one thing after another.
But tell me why anyone would want to serve at State with this kind of headache.
Tom Robinson
[I can hear it already: "But I bet US govt hackers attacked the Wikileaks website!" Jeez, I hope so.]
Spiegel
NYT
depending on countries laws some info will not be covered by one country but will be by other countries journalists
Wikileaks DOS
“”If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can’t it get us out?” – Will Rogers (1879-1935)
These are diplomatic cables, not the revelation of the identity of an undercover operative working on the issue of WMDs. Not only do I not see it as a sin, I see it as a very good thing indeed. Shine some light on things. See what’s really happening. Contrast and compare to the official story lines. Be informed, not afraid.
More sunshine ! indeed. And it’s not just the US that is getting pecked at over this.
if you have a son or a daughter getting shot at in Afghanistan, or a son or daughter hooked on smack, how would you feel to learn than Afghanistan’s Vice-president is flying around with suitcases containing $52 million in cash from “undisclosed sources” or that Karzai is “widely understood to be corrupt and a narcotics trafficker”?
Or how should we feel to learn that Saudi Arabia continues to be the largest source of funding for Al Qaeda?
Sometimes the sword cuts both ways.
PS. There’ll be a bunch of folks rotting away in our federal prisons for marijuana charges glad to know we continue faithfully fighting that war on drugs…
I did inhale.
NY Times
Current correspondence with the US govt in which Assange requests US to specify where the documents release harms any individual.
“”If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can’t it get us out?” – Will Rogers (1879-1935)
The United States government will not fall. We’ll continue to deal with the same people in the same way. Security will be tightened.
The only real beneficiaries of these leaks are historians. This offers up an array of information rarely available and certainly not available in this volume.
I’m not sure of your point. Are you saying that it’s irrelevant whether Afghanistan’s Vice-president flies around with suitcases of money; what’s important is learning about it? If so, it’s easy enough to ignore the news or to believe only what makes you feel better. That’s quite common, and a good remedy for being upset at the state of the world.
I’ve said a number of times that we live in a propaganda state. I think that’s a bad thing. I never expected a serious chorus of “Tell me lies, tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. . . .”
the US government issuing terror-filled statements about the ‘safety of our troops overseas’ and operatives and so on, after the last Wikileaks doc dump…. that didn’t quite pan out as they’d said it would…
No more died than was considered ‘normal’ for the period or operations, as I recall.
I have a feeling the same will happen here. Other than major egg on the collective face of American Diplomacy, it’ll be just another day at work…
As for judging the wisdom of the release…from what I’ve seen so far, nothing in it compromised plans for future operations (that were in progress or planning stages presently), and mainly shows the current and past administrations’ Diplomatic Corps in a distinctly unflattering light. It was said elsewhere (here, I think), that Diplomats stock in trade is lies and deceptions…insofar as that goes, the occasional dousing in Cold, Clean water does them good.
There will be some scrambling, but in the end this will fade away just like the last time…
“In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it ain’t.” — Yogi Berra
the US government issuing terror-filled statements about the ‘safety of our troops overseas’ and operatives and so on, after the last Wikileaks doc dump…. that didn’t quite pan out as they’d said it would…
No more died than was considered ‘normal’ for the period or operations, as I recall.
I have a feeling the same will happen here. Other than major egg on the collective face of American Diplomacy, it’ll be just another day at work…
As for judging the wisdom of the release…from what I’ve seen so far, nothing in it compromised plans for future operations (that were in progress or planning stages presently), and mainly shows the current and past administrations’ Diplomatic Corps in a distinctly unflattering light. It was said elsewhere (here, I think), that Diplomats stock in trade is lies and deceptions…insofar as that goes, the occasional dousing in Cold, Clean water does them good.
There will be some scrambling, but in the end this will fade away just like the last time…
“In theory, theory is the same as practice. In practice, it ain’t.” — Yogi Berra
Sunshine is the best disinfectant…
Our government does all sorts of nasty shit and we usually get the pleasure of discovering thirty years after the fact why country X or Y hates our freedoms…
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. John Stuart Mill
An interesting paper for Cryptologic Quarterly
Spring/Summer 2001-Vol. 20, Nos. 1-2, pp. 65-74. (author’s name redacted) about secrets and secrecy, concluding with…
“We have laid out a very rough, multidimensional taxonomy of secrets, focusing on their nature and origins. We have proposed that this taxonomy will give security practitioners a framework that can be used in understanding human behavior in relation to secrets, which may vary noticeably from the common assumptions. It is the author’s hope that this paper might lead those in the security community to further explore all the aspects of human behavior surrounding the motivations, creation, valuation, and handling of secrets. By doing so, we may gain more insight into how to make secure systems that actually meet the needs of the illogical, nondeterministic, oddly programmed system components known as “users.” ”
“”If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can’t it get us out?” – Will Rogers (1879-1935)
This leak will accelerate the loss of imperial power with allies and opponents. It is weakening Obama’s and Clinton’s foreign policy standing in already trying times. E.g. Germany aligns with China in some key economic questions and South Korea seams to be painfully aware that China is the key to handle the aggressive North.
The US does of course still factor in but no longer reigns supreme. This is what the dawn of the American century looks like.
that our government is hypocritical when it severely punishes our own citizens for minor infractions and does business, even supports major players in the drug business.
I think soldiers should know they’re being sent to Afghanistan to protect the interests of drug dealers.
I think local cops and DEA agents should know we’re protecting the source of the drugs they so diligently fight against.
Most people aren’t aware that the Taliban are a bunch of religious fanatics not unlike extreme Christian fundamentalists. Under Taliban watch the heroin trade was almost entirely extinguished.
We hired drug dealers to eliminate the Taliban and I believe significant sums of drug cash are now being funneled through Wall Street Corporations. This cash is also used to fund black ops around the world.
People sending their kids off to kill and perhaps die in Afghanistan should know this.
I did inhale.
I look forward to Germany’s renewed emphasis on expeditionary warfare.
Let us overthrow the totems, break the taboos. Or better, let us consider them cancelled. Coldly, let us be intelligent. ~ Pierre Trudeau
This has been around for a while. The person making the report still has his job at the UN. But nobody dealt with it. Just like nobody in government deals with the fact that they’re still growing opium poppies in Afghanistan after all these years of occupation. Those farmers could be paid more than they’re getting right now. So what’s the holdup? Could be Karzai and his heroin-friendly brother. That’s another story that’s been out there for a while.
The “actonable” intelligence is there. It just doesn’t get mentioned in the US more than once in a while and without followup. I can understand why. If it were abundantly clear that successive US governments had fostered the heroin trade by not eliminating it, we might demand that they all be charged as accomplices to manslaughter, at the very least, due to the deaths from the trade.
Assange is a publicity-hound asshole. I might have a shred of respect for him if he posted material from Russia or China. Oops, I doubt that will happen as he knows that will get him killed. Assange knows if he releases material form the US the worst that can happen is an interview on Oprah.
Total Tool.
Mad Dog
It’s not our freedoms that they hate. It’s when we preach at them about freedom, openness, and equality, and follow it up with covert subversion, corruption, and colonialism.
This is why the internet exists. I hope Wikileaks clones start springing up like music file-sharing sites did all over the web in the 90s.
The idea that government should operate in secret, that government has the right to routinely violate international law, violate human rights, and bring economic chaos to other nations because it’s somehow “good for us” is just baloney.
Missing on the internet a <sarcasm/> tag..
To be added in HTML6.0
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. John Stuart Mill
Has the fact that we are f-ing around in Yemen ever been communicated to the broad public? Not the people who still read newspapers, but the people who only get news from TV or friends?
Wikileaks is the only way real news gets rebroadcast by US news organizations. Even Fox news may say the word Yemen.
His position in society, his high repute among his fellow men, his nimbus as a master biped.
- Rex Stout
Being a public figure is his only defense in a celebrity-ridden society. It’s brilliant, really.
His position in society, his high repute among his fellow men, his nimbus as a master biped.
- Rex Stout
As to Russia or China: Russia is irrelevant until the Arctic melts some more. China has relied on a real-estate bubble and very bad regional labor policy; they’re probably going to wind up a closed society again. Neither helped blow up the world’s economic system.
The US President is about halfway to President Of The World. We really are King Rat.
His position in society, his high repute among his fellow men, his nimbus as a master biped.
- Rex Stout
Having been avoiding politics lately, since it all seems in meltdown, with everyone covering their asses, so I only glanced at the NYTimes headlines on this and was surprised by the extent it focuses on “everybody hates Iran and they are crazy.”
As Sean points out, ” How will it do the cause of peace any good at all when it will more than likely destabilize Yemen further and subsequently add momentum to the “do something crowd” in the Beltway?”
Is this a form of “controlled demolition?” It does seem mostly to advance the interests of those wanting more disorder, than those trying to stabilize the situation. Obviously there are different groups wanting more meltdown and they are not all outside the power structure.
The negative feedback loops seem to be compounding. Some sort of serious explosion seems baked in.
Old spies and Dementia is a slow-motion disaster for the security state- US and worldwide.
‘Once a Spy’: What Happens to a Spy with Alzheimer’s?
His position in society, his high repute among his fellow men, his nimbus as a master biped.
- Rex Stout
His position in society, his high repute among his fellow men, his nimbus as a master biped.
- Rex Stout
I haven’t read a secret yet that I thought I could not handle. Are we so weak and tender that talk of bribes startles us out of equilibrium? I hope not.
It’s not just the casual arrogance of diplomats that worries me; it’s that they seem to think their correspondence was going to escape the internet.
It’s a hard lesson to learn. Best start learning it. Whatever you type into a computer is probably going to wind up as exposed as any YouTube video. Therefore, don’t say shit you wouldn’t want your mom to see.
.
Cows get milked, rubes get bilked,
And fat cats dine on fools and cream.
The gov are ready:
.
background US Government seizure of the internet has begun; DHS takes over 76 websites
X-Link about the 76 domestic site shutdowns, From Agonist Thread:
Also how Govt. is not ready yet. They need COICA to pass:
Will Internet censorship bill be pushed through lame-duck Congress?
A look at his record of whistle blowing does not support your dismissal. Wiki mirror A
As for the dangers involved, the incarcerations and/or sudden deaths of many journalists in the past short years does not suggest that western whistle blowing is a safe endeavour.
“”If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can’t it get us out?” – Will Rogers (1879-1935)
Jonathan Lee Riches AKA Bernard Madoff AKA Faisal Shazad vs Julian Assange Bivens action filed last August in Colorado.
“”If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can’t it get us out?” – Will Rogers (1879-1935)
It’s gotta be large in the logs. I’m hoping for more fun stuff from cables in this time period!
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Hongpong.com
If nothing else it will underscore that the US deals with the whole entire world. Is everything nitty gritty getting spilled out? Yeah but at least we showed up. It reminds Americans of something fundamental – that we are supposed to go forth and trade and hang out, and not favor one nation over another. If it helps nudge our country back towards this then that’s probably for the best.
A lot of the cables, like the Turkish Ergenekon one posted now, are pretty good writing and also will provide some much more serious view to general stuff happening all over the world.
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Hongpong.com
Having this outsourced to the US was convenient but it really is no longer a good option. The EU is good with soft power but it needs to acquire a stick as well.
The United States government will not fall
Empires come and go. Where did the US bring democracy? Why would the world want to defer to an empire that’s economically, financially, and spiritually bankrupt?
Some historians not only record history but connect the dots between past, present, and future as well. Here‘s a good observation on the state of the American Empire.
Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.
Do you think the Germans are psychologically ready to become a military power again? Is the world ready for a militarized Germany – one that plays a more aggressive role, albeit under a European umbrella? I imagine many older Europeans remain very wary.
Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.
a deeply flawed security architecture when innovative and stable security building codes are required?
Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.
I might have gotten that wrong. Maybe that’s what you meant? Transition from a flawed to an improved system?
Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.
…to one that is predicated on multiple major powers with global or situationally global reach, regional [ideally] benevolent hegemons, instruments of national power other than just military, and distributed responsibility for making it all work.
Let us overthrow the totems, break the taboos. Or better, let us consider them cancelled. Coldly, let us be intelligent. ~ Pierre Trudeau
That sounds good to me.
Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.
… throughout the entirety of the cold war.
At any rate I am thinking of a professional EU force preferably with English as lingua franca. If this won’t be a genuine European army it is not worth the effort.
Far better to start small and see if it grows into that.
Let us overthrow the totems, break the taboos. Or better, let us consider them cancelled. Coldly, let us be intelligent. ~ Pierre Trudeau