Spain and others probe 'secret CIA flights'


November 15

BBC - Spain is launching an investigation into claims that CIA planes carrying terror suspects made secret stopovers on Spanish soil.

Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso made the announcement on Spanish television on Tuesday.

He said that if proven, such activities could damage relations between the Spanish and US governments. According to Spanish press reports, the CIA is suspected of having used Majorca for such prisoner transfers.


graham November 15, 2005 - 6:42pm

xlink: Spain not happy

http://agonist.org/comments/2005/11/15/43722/595/5#5

CIA Allegations Spread to Canary Islands

Wednesday November 16, 2005 3:16 PM

By DANIEL WOOLLS

Associated Press Writer

MADRID, Spain (AP) - Reports of alleged CIA use of Spain as a stopover point for transporting suspected Islamic terrorists spread Wednesday to the Canary Islands, where the regional government said it had asked Madrid to explain if airports there were also used for covert missions.

The Spanish archipelago off west Africa joins the Mediterranean island of Mallorca in the controversy.

Interior Minister Jose Antonio Alonso said Tuesday a judge is investigating reports that at least 10 flights landed in Mallorca as part of the CIA's program of ``extraordinary rendition,'' in which suspected terrorists are taken without court approval to third countries for questioning and possibly subjected to ill treatment.

The Canary Islands government said Wednesday that in May it had asked the central government to explain local newspaper reports that suspected CIA planes had made stopovers five times on the island of Tenerife between March 2004 and May 2005.

``But we never got an answer back, or just a vague answer that the government had no evidence. Now we want to ask again for those explanations,'' Miguel Becerra, a spokesman for the Canary Islands government, said in a telephone interview.

``The situation needs to be cleared up,'' he said. ``We need to clarify if Canary Island airports have been used with or without the knowledge of the Spanish authorities.''

The Mallorca flights came to light in a report prepared in April by the Civil Guard, a paramilitary police unit that answers to the Interior Ministry, following a complaint filed by a group of Mallorca residents. They acted after reading a story in a local newspaper, Diario de Mallorca, which said CIA planes had been landing and taking off from Palma, the capital of Mallorca.

The chief prosecutor for the Balearic islands, Bartomeu Barcelo, who ordered that police inquiry, shelved the investigation after concluding it had gathered no evidence of wrongdoing.

The confidential Civil Guard report, excerpts of which were obtained by The Associated Press, quotes two senior Civil Guard officials based at the airport and the director of the handling company that dealt with the suspect planes as testifying that they saw nothing abnormal in their dealings with the aircraft or crew.

The airport's chief of operations is quoted in the report as saying he did not know what the planes' mission was and that he had no knowledge the CIA had done anything illegal at the airport.

Barcelo said Tuesday that after he halted his inquiry, an investigative magistrate in Mallorca, Antonio Garcia Sansaloni, launched a separate one based on evidence gathered by police who had been working under Barcelo.

Garcia Sansaloni later ruled that he did not have jurisdiction to decide whether to seek charges. He said if a crime was committed, it happened abroad and thus the case should go to the National Court, which under Spanish law can prosecute human rights crimes alleged to have been committed outside Spain.

more

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5419227,00.html

Tina November 16, 2005 - 11:52am

Europe Features

CIA camps row heats up in Europe

By Gareth Harding

Nov 16, 2005, 19:00 GMT

BRUSSELS, Belgium (UPI) -- Just when the United States thought the transatlantic row over possible Central Intelligence Agency terrorist detention camps in Europe had blown over, the European Parliament followed the Council of Europe`s decision to launch an investigation into the allegations by holding a rowdy debate on the issue Monday.

Washington-based advocacy group Human Rights Watch caused a diplomatic storm earlier this month by publishing flight records showing that a CIA-commissioned Boeing 737 transported suspected al-Qaida terrorists from Afghanistan and Iraq to Poland and Romania in 2002 and 2003. The allegations were corroborated by a Washington Post story that revealed details of eight 'black sites' -- as the covert prisons are referred to in classified White House and CIA documents -- in South Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

Fresh allegations are putting more pressure on the Pentagon -- and EU governments -- to come clean about the affair. The New York Times reported Monday that Spanish police have opened a criminal investigation into reports that Majorca was used as a stopover for CIA planes transporting terrorist suspects to internment camps. And according to Swedish news agency TT, at least two airplanes hired by the agency have landed at Swedish airports.

Members of the European Parliament have been itching for a debate on the issue ever since the allegations were first made. On Monday, they got their chance at a meeting of the EU assembly in Strasbourg, France. As expected, they ripped into the U.S. administration`s handling of the war on terror and lambasted the European Commission for failing to investigate the matter.

'We all feel solidarity with the victims of terrorism,' said Portuguese center-right deputy Carlos Coelho, 'But every step must be taken in respect to fundamental human rights and the rule of law.' Baroness Sarah Ludford, a Liberal legislator from Britain, launched a scathing attack on the American government, saying it had made 'disappearances a U.S. tactic.' The war on terror, Ludford stated, had opened the 'blackest of black holes.'

Responding on behalf of the European Commission, Vice-President Franco Frattini said there was no evidence to prove that the U.S. intelligence agency had been hiding terror suspects at secret bases. He also said the commission had no powers to launch an investigation into the affair.

'We are in a position to put questions, but can we seize classified files of the CIA? No, sorry, that is not possible.'

However, the EU`s homeland security chief warned that if the allegations were found to be true, there could be the severest consequences. 'Were these events to have occurred, then clearly this would constitute a grave infringement of the values and rules of the European Union,' he told lawmakers. 'Such a serious breach, where it is proven, may lead to serious political sanctions being taken against a member state of the European Union.'<!--page-->

Under Article 6 of the European Union`s rulebook, any state found to be violating fundamental human rights -- and the existence of secret detention centers flouting international law would constitute such a breach -- could find itself stripped of voting rights.

Frattini`s reply, although blunt, failed to satisfy Euro-deputies. Italian communist Vittorio Agnoletto said the commissioner`s statement reminded him of the 'three monkeys -- hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing.'

Ludford, like many center-left and green members of the EU`s only directly-elected body, expressed their frustration at the commission`s passive stance on the issue. 'The commissioner said there is no evidence. But what has he done to find out? I am left with a sense of unease and residual doubt.'

Members of the European Parliament, who have few formal powers in the foreign policy field, can take some comfort from the fact that the Council of Europe -- the continent`s top human rights -- opened an investigation into the issue earlier this month.

If it finds evidence that Poland, an E.U. member, and Rumania -- which is expected to join the bloc in 2007 -- allowed the Central Intelligence Agency to set up prison camps on their territories, the 25-state club could be plunged into a deep crisis. At the very least, Warsaw would get a sharp dressing down. At worst, it could find itself temporarily suspended from EU decision making for violating basic human rights. Rumania, which is still a candidate to join the EU, could find its route to membership barred.

But whichever way the Council of Europe rules, the real loser will be the United States. Anger at the way intelligence was misused in the run up to the Iraq war, at the way prisoners have been treated in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay and at the way hard-fought-for rights have been trampled on in the war on terror is deeply felt in Europe. Washington is also blamed for refusing to deny the prison camp claims -- tantamount to an admission of guilt in many Europeans` eyes.

Allegations of secret CIA camps on European soil confirm many people`s worst suspicions about U.S. tactics in the struggle against global terrorism. If the claims are confirmed, the impact on transatlantic relations could be devastating.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/europe/article_1062449.php/CIA_camps_row_heats_up_in_Europe

Tina November 16, 2005 - 1:07pm

Malta used for stopovers by `CIA planes'  

by David Lindsay

 David Lindsay

With European governments initiating investigations into claims that United States Central Intelligence Agency planes carrying terrorism suspects have used their airports and airspace in the controversial practice of "extraordinary rendition", The Malta Independent on Sunday can report that two of the planes known to be implicated in the practice have made stopovers in Malta.

Flights records and photographs obtained by this newspaper place two suspected CIA planes at Malta International Airport on two separate occasions - one in December 2003 and another in December 2004.

A Boeing 737, with tail number N313P, was the first to stop over in Malta, between 6 and 10 December 2003. The plane had arrived from Northolt, an RAF airfield 10 kilometres from Heathrow Airport, on 6 December 2003 and left four days later on 10 December bound for Tripoli.

A year later a second plane, a Gulfstream jet with tail number N227SV, arrived in Malta on 17 December 2004 and left later that day for Iceland, from where it flew to Washington DC. Other information, still unconfirmed, alleges the plane had arrived in Malta from Cairo.

The flight records are compiled by the US Federal Aviation Administration and were made available to this newspaper by The Chicago Tribune.

Photos taken by Maltese plane spotters also confirm the planes' presence in Malta. The reason behind the stopovers are, however, still unknown.

Searches of flight data reveal that the planes have flown around the world and include stops at US military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and the US naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Other landings include Cyprus, Morocco, Algeria, Macedonia, and Romania.

Extraordinary rendition refers to the controversial American procedure in which criminal suspects are apprehended, sometimes secretly, and sent for interrogation in countries where torture is used as a routine form of interrogation.

Reports cite suspects being arrested, shackled, blindfolded and sedated, after which they are transported, usually by private jet, to countries such as Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Uzbekistan.

The CIA has reportedly set up a number of so-called "black sites", some in eastern Europe, where suspects are held and interrogated beyond the scope of normal laws. Hundreds of detainees are thought to have been subjected to the practice, to the outrage of human rights groups and governments alike.

The private planes used in the practice are not leased by the CIA but are owned by CIA shell companies. Although the practice has been in use since the 1990s, its scope has been widened immensely since 11 September 2001.

EU governments investigate

Investigations and inquiries concerning the practice are currently underway in Spain, Italy, Germany, Denmark and Sweden over the use of the countries' airspace and airports for actions constituting violations of human rights.

more

http://217.145.4.56/ind/news.asp?newsitemid=24604

Tina November 21, 2005 - 11:43am

Canada probes report of CIA detainee plane landing

21 Nov 2005 18:04:07 GMT

Source: Reuters

OTTAWA, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Canada is investigating reports that a plane allegedly used by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency to transport prisoners for interrogation landed at a Canadian airport last week, the foreign ministry said on Monday.

The French-language La Presse newspaper said the plane had taken off from Iceland heading for St. John's in Newfoundland, on Canada's east coast. The Canadian Press said the 40-seat turboprop landed in St. John's on Friday before returning to its base in North Carolina.

"We are looking into it," said foreign ministry spokeswoman Pamela Greenwell, who declined to give further details. The U.S. embassy in Ottawa said it had no comment.

more

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21682005.htm

Tina November 21, 2005 - 2:22pm

Nov 22, 9:05 AM EST

European Investigator Seeks CIA Details

By JAN SLIVA

Associated Press Writer

PARIS (AP) -- The head of a European probe into alleged secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe is investigating 31 suspected flights that landed in Europe and is trying to acquire past satellite images of sites in Romania and Poland, according to a report obtained by The Associated Press Tuesday.

Dick Marty, a Swiss senator leading the investigation for the Council of Europe, presented a first report on his work at a closed meeting of the human rights watchdog's legal affairs committee in Paris.

Marty said he had asked the Brussels-based Eurocontrol air safety organization to provide details of the 31 suspected flights, a list of which was given to him by the New York-based Human Rights Watch.

"I received from Human Rights Watch a list of 31 aircraft alleged to belong to entities with direct or indirect links to the CIA," Marty said in the report, which is to be made public next week. "It is claimed these were used by the CIA to transport prisoners."

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In an interview with the AP, Marty said there was still no direct proof that secret prisons existed anywhere in Europe, but that there were "many hints, such as suspicious moving patterns of aircraft, that have to be investigated."

Marty said he had asked the European Union's Satellite Center in Spain to look up and hand over satellite images of locations in Romania and Poland that were cited by Human Rights Watch as sites of possible CIA secret prisons.

"When we talk about 'prisons,' they don't necessarily have to be for many people, they could be cells for a very small group of people," he said.

Human Rights Watch identified the Kogalniceanu military airfield in Romania and Poland's Szczytno-Szymany airport as likely sites for secret detention centers. The group says it based its conclusion on flight logs of CIA aircraft from 2001 to 2004 that it had obtained.

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Other airports that might have been used by CIA aircraft in some capacity are Palma de Majorca in Spain's Balearic Islands, Larnaca in Cyprus and Shannon in Ireland, Marty's report said.

Allegations that the CIA hid and interrogated key al-Qaida suspects at Soviet-era compounds in Eastern Europe were first reported in The Washington Post on Nov. 2. The paper did not identify the countries involved. A day after the report appeared, Human Rights Watch said it had evidence indicating the CIA transported suspected terrorists captured in Afghanistan to Poland and Romania.

The parliamentary assembly of the Council appointed Marty two weeks ago to investigate the paper's claims. Marty said the Council had a "moral obligation" to investigate, but that the inquiry was not meant to spark anti-American feelings or question the U.S. fight against terrorism.

more

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SECRET_PRISONS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=INTERNATIONAL

Tina November 22, 2005 - 12:01pm

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 · Last updated 2:09 p.m. PT

Austria joins probe of secret CIA flights

By WILLIAM J. KOLE

ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

VIENNA, Austria -- A CIA plane allegedly carrying suspected terrorist captives flew through Austria's airspace in 2003, the air force said Wednesday as the country joined a flurry of investigations stretching from Scandinavia to Spain.

Europe's top human rights watchdog, meanwhile, intensified its probe into alleged secret CIA detention centers and covert flights, with Council of Europe chief Terry Davis urging countries to provide full information on the issue.

Socialist lawmakers in the European Parliament urged the European Commission, the EU's head office, to urgently launch its own inquiry.

"We cannot accept Guantanamo-like prisons in Europe," said Martine Roure, the Socialists' civil liberties coordinator. "We cannot accept that parts of Europe are not subject to the normal legal rules of detention and treatment ... The best way to fight the fanatics and terrorists is not to adopt their methods but rather to stress our values of fundamental human rights."

Bulgarian officials Wednesday denied media reports that CIA aircraft allegedly landed at the Sarafovo airport near the Black Sea port of Burgas, and Portugal's Communist Party renewed its demand for the government to clarify similar reports.

Denmark said it would ask U.S. authorities for details about the alleged transport of detainees on planes said to be used by the CIA over Danish territory.

The Pentagon will not disclose what countries the U.S. military might fly over "or make brief refueling stops in during detainee movements ... (because) doing so would constitute a safety risk to both the detainees and our troops," said a spokesman, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Joe Carpenter.

In Austria, air force commander Maj. Gen. Erich Wolf told state radio that the flight in question - a C-130 Hercules transport plane that took off from Frankfurt, Germany, and headed to Azerbaijan - crossed Austrian airspace on Jan. 21, 2003.

Austria's army scrambled fighter jets to make contact with the plane's pilot but did not suspect anything wrong at the time, and the government lodged no diplomatic protests, Wolf said.

Since then, however, Austrian authorities have found reason to believe the flight was transporting captives, Wolf added. He did not elaborate.

Peter Pilz, an official in charge of security issues for Austria's Green Party, criticized the military's handling of the incident, contending that sending up the jets and taking no further action amounted to providing an "honor escort" for the CIA plane.

Pilz accused the government and the Defense Ministry of "tolerating and playing down the illegal actions of the United States."

Josef Cap, floor leader in parliament for the opposition Social Democratic Party, called for a meeting of Austria's national Security Council to determine whether the politically neutral nation's airspace was violated by CIA overflights.

There have been no indications that any landings occurred in Austria, which refused to grant the United States permission to use its airspace during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

more

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Europe_Secret_Flights.html

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MI5 'given secret prisons data'  

There are claims the US has secret prisons in eastern Europe

Security service MI5 has received information given by terror suspects held in "secret prisons" outside the US, the BBC has learned.

It is understood MI5 and MI6 have not been involved in holding or questioning so-called "ghost prisoners".

The Council of Europe watchdog on human rights is looking into reports that the CIA has been using European airports to transport these detainees.

And the EU is also asking the US for clarification on the issue.

Thwarted attacks?

BBC News understands that both MI5 and MI6 are not aware of the locations of any of the CIA's secret prisons, nor the terms of detention for so-called ghost detainees.

British intelligence officers are also said to have had no direct access to the detainees.

But it has been confirmed that the UK has received intelligence based on the interrogations of "ghost prisoners".

Some of the information is said to have led to alleged terrorist attacks in the UK or against UK interests being thwarted.

Interrogation technique

Senior al-Qaeda figures such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is among those being held.

He is reported to have been subjected to an interrogation technique called water boarding, in which the detainee is led to believe they are being drowned.

Critics have argued that such practices constitute torture, although the CIA denies this.

But the director of MI5 has recently argued the UK cannot afford to ignore intelligence which may be of value, even if it may be the result of torture.

Investigation

The Council of Europe on Wednesday gave European governments three months to reveal anything they know about any secret prisons or flights involving "ghost" detainees.

The council asked governments to explain "the manner in which their internal law ensures that acts by officials of foreign agencies within their jurisdiction are subject to adequate controls".

more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4464962.stm

Tina November 23, 2005 - 9:27pm

Time is GMT + 8 hours

Posted: 24 November 2005 0952 hrs

US official acknowledges rising EU pressure on secret CIA prisons

WASHINGTON : A top US official acknowledged mounting EU pressure for Washington to come clean about reports of secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe while stressing his country's right to protect itself against terrorists.

Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Dan Fried said he had discussed the matter with various European officials during talks in Berlin, Vienna, Madrid and Brussels last week, but he refused to elaborate.

"I don't want to attempt to characterise our discussions with allies on this," he told AFP. "The issue came up in a number of ways, in a number of places."

Fried also declined comment on the European Union's plan to formally ask Washington to clarify reports about the secret CIA prisons known as "black sites".

He underlined, however, the US right to wage a battle against terrorism.

"We have a duty to protect our people and to do our best to protect others from terrorists," he said. "We are conducting this struggle in a manner consistent with our values and our international obligations and will continue to do that.

"It is challenging to deal with an enemy that knows no rules and whose purpose it is to kill as many people as possible."

His comments came as the Council of Europe Wednesday said it was opening a separate probe into reports that CIA planes had used European airports to transit suspected terrorists allegedly subjected to extra-judicial detention and torture

Planes allegedly operated by the CIA have been spotted at airports in Finland, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain and Sweden as well as Morocco.

more

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/180265/1/.html

Tina November 24, 2005 - 1:22am

Nov 25, 6:11 AM EST

Dutch Asks U.S. About CIA Prisoner Flight

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) -- The Netherlands has asked the United States for clarification about claims that a CIA prisoner flight landed on Dutch soil last week, Dutch media reported Friday.

The flight is believed to have been destined for a secret CIA prison allegedly operated by the intelligence agency in Eastern Europe to interrogate terrorism suspects.

Dutch Foreign Ministry spokesman Herman van Gelderen declined immediate comment.

The United States has not confirmed the existence of the prisons and Eastern European countries deny knowledge of covert facilities. The daily Volkskrant reported that Foreign Minister Ben Bot has sought more information from U.S. officials.

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Bot told parliament Thursday the Dutch may reconsider their role in U.S. military operations if the reports of CIA prisons are true and Americans have violated human rights.

If they continue to "beat about the bush on reports on CIA prisons this could have consequences for our contribution to new military missions," Bot said. "The U.S. must not play hide and seek. Sooner or later it will come out anyway."

The Dutch are due to deploy more than 1,000 NATO troops in the high-risk Uruzgan province in Afghanistan in the spring, but are reconsidering in light of intelligence reports on the poor security situation.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NETHERLANDS_CIA_FLIGHT?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=INTERNATIONAL

Tina November 25, 2005 - 10:14am

CIA 'sneaks' terror suspects via Germany

Berlin

26nov05

THE US Central Intelligence Agency was flying terrorist suspects through US air bases in Germany without informing the German Government, the Handelsblatt newspaper reported yesterday, citing a US intelligence source.

"The CIA aircraft have made stopovers in various European countries, among others Germany," the source told the paper. "Nothing has changed in this regard."

The source, described as a "high-ranking" intelligence official, mentioned the Ramstein base, the largest US military air base in Europe, and the Rhein-Main Air Base near Frankfurt.

The newspaper said German authorities had assumed the practice had ceased.

The Government declined to comment, saying the European Union had delegated British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw to clear up the matter with US authorities.

The information could be relevant to a court case in Germany over the alleged abduction of Muslim cleric Imam Hassan Mustafa Osma Nasr in Rome in February 2003. CIA agents were alleged to have flown him via Ramstein, where he apparently changed to a different aircraft.

The Berliner Zeitung reported yesterday that the Rhein-Main Air Base had been used for a large number of secret CIA flights between 2002 and 2004. The paper based its report largely on information from plane spotters, listing 85 takeoffs and landings by CIA aircraft, and said flight records showed many flights had originated in, or flown on to, Baghdad, Kabul, Amman and Pakistan.

more

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17363970%255E954,00.html

Tina November 25, 2005 - 1:40pm

US stalls on 'secret prisons' charge

Berlin - The United States has told the European Union it needs more time to respond to allegations of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) secret jails and flights in Europe, as the bloc's top justice official warned on Monday that any EU country found to have hosted a clandestine detention center could face punishment.

The warning, issued by EU Justice and Home Affairs Commissioner Franco Frattini, comes amid rising concern about alleged CIA activities in Europe, with investigations being carried out in half a dozen countries.

Frattini said any EU nation found to have secret CIA prisons on their territory could have their EU voting rights suspended - a measure unprecedented in the 25-nation bloc.

The Council of Europe - the continent's main human rights watchdog - is investigating the allegations, and EU justice official Jonathan Faul last week formally raised the issue with White House and US State Department representatives, Frattini said.

"They told him, 'give us the appropriate time to evaluate the situation.' Right now, there is no response," he said.

The CIA has refused to comment on the European investigation.

Frattini said suspending EU voting rights would be justified under the EU treaty which stipulates that the bloc is founded on the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights, fundamental freedoms and the rule of law, and that a persistent breach of these principles can be punished.

Clandestine detention centers would violate the European Convention on Human Rights.

Allegations that the CIA hid and interrogated key al-Qaeda suspects at Soviet-era compounds in Eastern Europe were first reported on November 2 in The Washington Post. A day after the report appeared, Human Rights Watch said it had evidence indicating the CIA transported suspected terrorists captured in Afghanistan to Poland and Romania.

more

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?sf=2813&click_id=2813&art_id=qw1133193960250B222&set_
id=6

Tina November 28, 2005 - 1:18pm

Britain quizzes US over reports of CIA jails

Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:18 AM ET

By Gideon Long

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said on Wednesday it had asked the United States to respond to media reports that the CIA is running secret jails in Eastern Europe and covertly flying prisoners through airports in the European Union.

Foreign Minister Jack Straw wrote to Washington on behalf of the EU on Tuesday amid growing concern in Europe about the reports. His letter raised "media allegations of CIA terror camps in Eastern Europe" as well as the question of flights, a foreign office spokeswoman said.

The Washington Post reported the existence of the jails earlier this month. U.S.-based campaign group Human Rights Watch named Poland and Romania as the most likely locations, a claim both countries deny.

The United States has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of secret jails.

Europe's leading human rights watchdog, the Council of Europe, is investigating the allegations and has asked all European governments to respond to it by February.

It is also probing flights by 31 aircraft which it suspects may have been used by the CIA to deliver terrorism suspects secretly to countries where they may have been tortured -- a practice known as "extraordinary rendition."

At least eight European governments have raised concerns with the United States about the flights.

British human rights group Liberty said on Wednesday it was worried that some CIA flights had passed through British airports and airbases, secretly carrying prisoners.

The government denied that charge.

"We are not aware of the use of UK territory or airspace for the purpose of extraordinary rendition, nor have we received any requests, nor granted any permission for the use of UK territory or airspace for such purposes," the Foreign Office said.

more

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=10442285&src=rss/ElectionC
overage

Tina November 30, 2005 - 2:29pm

from the December 01, 2005 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1201/p01s03-woeu.html

Controversy grows in Europe over CIA jail network

By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

PARIS - A gathering storm of outrage will greet Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice when she visits Europe next week amid allegations that the CIA has been using airports and military bases across the Continent to secretly transport and detain terrorist suspects.

Six countries have launched judicial investigations, Europe's top human rights watchdog has begun a probe, and the European Union has formally asked Washington to clarify reports that the Central Intelligence Agency's network of clandestine jails extends to Europe.

"There is a profound shock among the public that some [European] governments seem to have been in collusion with the CIA in assisting them to have individuals disappear into black holes," says Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defense College.

The row threatens to undermine recent efforts on both sides of the Atlantic to repair US-European relations that had been badly strained by the US-led invasion of Iraq. "This is exactly the sort of thing we do not need," comments Guillaume Parmentier, head of the French Center on the US, a think tank in Paris that promotes transatlantic ties. "It won't make relations easier."

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeyer, who raised the issue of secret jails with Dr. Rice during a meeting Tuesday in Washington, said afterward that she had promised to "provide a prompt and detailed response" to the EU letter.

How far the row will weaken cooperation between US and European intelligence services, which have worked closely in recent years, "will depend on what kind of information emerges" from the investigations under way predicts Paul Wilkinson, head of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at St. Andrew's University in Scotland.

Allegations that the CIA had hidden and interrogated some of its most important Al Qaeda suspects in unidentified Eastern European countries were first reported in a Nov. 2 Washington Post article. The next day, Human Rights Watch said evidence suggested Poland and Romania had hosted the secret jails.

Both countries deny any involvement. Clandestine prisons would violate the European Convention on Human Rights, to which both are signatories. Poland is also an EU member, which prompted EU Justice and Home Affairs Commissioner Franco Frattini to warn Monday that any member found guilty of breaching fundamental EU values could lose voting rights.

The controversy has broadened to include countries whose airspace or airports were allegedly used by CIA planes carrying secret prisoners. Human Rights Watch says it has identified 31 such planes.

Using information from Human Rights Watch, Dick Marty, investigating for the Council of Europe - Europe's human rights watchdog - has said CIA-linked planes appear to have stopped over at airports in Ireland, Cyprus, and Spain.

Mr. Marty is seeking data from the European air traffic control agency, to track suspicious plane movements over the past three years, and has asked the EU's satellite center for images that might indicate the construction of detention facilities at Polish and Romanian military bases.

Countries where police or judicial authorities have reported or begun investigating alleged CIA prisoner flights now include Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Iceland, Malta, and Germany.

"The question of flights, as such, is not something negative," Germany's new Defense Minister, Franz Josef Jung said Monday. "It is the question 'Was there torture?' that is justifiably causing concern, and it is that point that we are worried about."

It's not just officials who are concerned, however; public anger is spreading as well.

"Democracy is rather fragile in these Eastern European countries" accused of hosting the illegal jails, points out Mr. Parmentier. "It makes the Americans look exceptionally hypocritical to say that democracy should be spread everywhere and then encourage their allies to do things outside the rule of law."

more at link

Tina November 30, 2005 - 5:13pm

Leaking At All Costs

What the CIA is willing to do to hurt the Bush administration.


by John Hinderaker

The Daily Barf

11/30/2005 12:00:00 AM

THE CIA'S WAR against the Bush administration is one of the great untold stories of the past three years. It is, perhaps, the agency's most successful covert action of recent times. The CIA has used its budget to fund criticism of the administration by former Democratic officeholders. The agency allowed an employee, Michael Scheuer, to publish and promote a book containing classified information, as long as, in Scheuer's words, "the book was being used to bash the president." However, the agency's preferred weapon has been the leak. In one leak after another, generally to the New York Times or the Washington Post, CIA officials have sought to undermine America's foreign policy. Usually this is done by leaking reports or memos critical of administration policies or skeptical of their prospects. Through it all, our principal news outlets, which share the agency's agenda and profit from its torrent of leaks, have maintained a discreet silence about what should be a major scandal.

Recent events indicate that the CIA might even be willing to compromise the effectiveness of its own covert operations, if by doing so it can damage the Bush administration. The story began last May, when the New York Times outed an undercover CIA operation by identifying private companies that operated airlines for the agency. The Times fingered Aero Contractors Ltd., Pegasus Technologies, and Tepper Aviation as CIA-controlled entities. It described their aircraft and charted the routes they fly. Most significantly, the Times revealed one of the most secret uses to which these airlines were put:

When the Central Intelligence Agency wants to grab a suspected member of Al Qaeda overseas and deliver him to interrogators in another country, an Aero Contractors plane often does the job.

<more with lots of embedded leaks ah I mean links>

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/417aldhj.asp

The kool-aid flows:

It is a bitter irony that until now, the only one out of dozens of CIA-related leaks known to have resulted in a criminal investigation was the Valerie Plame disclosure, which was trivial in security terms, but unique in that it helped, rather than hurt, the Bush administration.

Tina December 2, 2005 - 3:13pm

Rice to warn Europe to back off over detainees

02 Dec 2005 20:23:09 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Saul Hudson

WASHINGTON, Dec 2 (Reuters) - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is expected to give allies in Europe a response next week to their pressure over Washington's treatment of terrorism suspects: back off.

For almost a month, the United States has been on the defensive, refusing to deny or confirm media reports the United States has held prisoners in secret in Eastern Europe and transported detainees incommunicado across the continent.

The European Union has demanded that Washington address the allegations to allay fears of illegal U.S. practices. The concerns are rampant in among the European public and parliaments, already critical of U.S. prisoner-abuse scandals in Iraq and Guantanamo, Cuba.

But Rice will shift to offense when she visits Europe next week, in a strategy that has emerged in recent days and been tested by her spokesman in public and in her private meetings with European visitors.

She will remind allies they themselves have been cooperating in U.S. operations and tell them to do more to win over their publics as a way to deflect criticism directed at the United States, diplomats and U.S. officials said.

"It's very clear they want European governments to stop pushing on this," said a European diplomat, who had contact with U.S. officials over the handling of the scandals. "They were stuck on the defensive for weeks, but suddenly the line has toughened up incredibly," the diplomat said.

Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said Rice told him in Washington she expected allies to trust that America does not allow rights abuses -- a sign she will avoid giving Europe a detailed response on U.S. intelligence work.

And she refused to give Ahern a personal assurance Ireland has not been used for secret prisoner transfers, saying he had already heard that denial from the U.S. ambassador, a senior State Department official said.

BLUNT BEHIND THE SCENES

Rice will deliver her message in private meetings with officials in Germany and at the EU headquarters in Brussels during a trip that starts on Monday and also includes a stop in Romania, which denies accusations it hosts a secret prison.

There are signs Europe has already begun to get the message to ease up on the controversy.

more

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N02173703.htm

Tina December 2, 2005 - 5:40pm

Blair faces allegations of complicity in torture

By Colin Brown and Andrew Buncombe in Washington

Published: 02 December 2005

Pressure is mounting on the White House to answer claims that the CIA is using UK airports to fly terrorist suspects for torture in secret prisons in Europe. Elizabeth Wilmshurst, the former Foreign Office lawyer who resigned over the Iraq war, warned Tony Blair last night that he cannot duck the questions crowding in about the flights which could mean Britain has been complicit in torture.

In The Independent, Ms Wilmshurst, now a fellow of Chatham House, said the Prime Minister could not justify breaking the international convention against torture by saying the "rules of the game have changed" because of the war on terrorism.

Britain's European partners stepped up the pressure for details to be disclosed about hundreds of secret flights by CIA-operated jets.

Sarah Ludford, a British member of the European Parliament's civil liberties committee, said: "I am not at all reassured that there is sufficient determination by [member states] to establish the truth," she said. "The allegations are now beyond speculation. We now have sufficient evidence involving CIA flights. We need to know who was on those flights, where they went."

EU leaders are ready to follow up their request to Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, to challenge the White House. On Tuesday he wrote to Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, calling for details of the secret flights to be revealed. Mr Straw said yesterday he had raised the issue with Ms Rice. She is likely to face direct challenges about flights when she visits Brussels next week.

This month, prisoners were reported held in two eastern European countries, believed to be Romania and Poland, brought there on flights the CIA calls "extraordinary rendition". Michael Ratner, director of the New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights, said: "It's a secret. No one knows what happens in the rendition process or in the gulag of secret CIA hellholes."

But journalists and campaigners have tracked some of what is happening by monitoring the flight records of planes known to be used by the CIA. Plane-spotters have helped compile information on the aircraft - including one Gulfstream originally identified as N379P but now renumbered N44982 - and their movements.

Twenty-six planes apparently used by the CIA have made 307 flights in Europe since 9/11. Of these, 94 had stops in Germany and 76 in Britain, at Luton, Glasgow, Prestwick and Northolt. The UK government has denied prisoners are being held on a US-operated base on British-owned Diego Garcia.

John Sifton, a researcher for Human Rights Watch, which has released a list of 26 "ghost detainees" held by the US without access to lawyers, said probably only a few of the 307 flights involved moving prisoners. Most, he said, were likely transferring CIA personnel. "It's impossible to know for sure how many are innocent," he said.

There is a debate in the US about whether torture should be permitted for extracting information. A Bill tabled by Senator John McCain to outlaw torture passed the Senate but is being opposed by Vice President Dick Cheney, who wants special exemption for CIA agents.

Increasingly, politicians in Britain and Europe are showing a determination to find out whether the US has "black sites" in eastern Europe where harsh treatment of suspected terrorists would raise fewer questions. Alexander Alvaro, a German Liberal MEP and member of the European civil liberties committee, said Angela Merkel, the Chancellor, would raise the issue in talks with George Bush. "I think our Chancellor will point out that Germany would not tolerate secret camps in Europe."

There are growing calls at Westminster for Mr Blair to block the CIA flights. The Labour MP Harry Cohen said: "It is not for the UK Government to connive in and facilitate people disappearance. The Government's blind-eye approach to enforcing the law is not acceptable."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article330660.ece

Tina December 2, 2005 - 5:43pm

Time is GMT + 8 hours

Posted: 05 December 2005 0318 hrs

US does not send suspects abroad for torture: Hadley  

WASHINGTON : The United States does not send terrorist suspects abroad to be tortured and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will address reports of secret CIA prisons in Europe during her upcoming visit there, national security adviser Stephen Hadley said.

Rice "is going to be addressing these issues in a comprehensive way," Hadley told Fox News Sunday. "One of the things she will be saying is 'Look, we are all threatened by terror. We need to cooperate in its solution.'

"As part of that cooperation for our part, we comply with US law," he added. "We respect the sovereignty of the countries with which we deal. And we do not move people around the world so that they can be tortured."

Rice leaves Monday for a trip to Berlin, Bucharest, Kiev and Brussels. Her visit comes amid European concern over reports of "black hole" interrogation centers and clandestine CIA flights for terror suspects.

The European Union last week sent Washington a request for clarification of the reports of the prisons and the transport flights in Europe.

US officials have refused to confirm or deny the existence of the secret facilities. But they have defended in general terms the country's use of tough tactics in its global war on terror.

In an interview with CNN, Hadley said there are certain kinds of operations "one cannot talk about."

"The terrorists threaten all of us," he said. "You've seen terror attacks in Britain, in Spain, in Italy, in Turkey, in Russia, in Egypt in Jordan, in Saudi Arabia. This is a threat, really, to the civilized world.

"We need to cooperate together to deal with this terrorist threat that threatens all of us. We're cooperating with a number of countries.

"That cooperation though is characterized by three things: One, we comply with the US Constitution. US laws and US treaty obligations. Secondly, we respect the sovereignty of those countries with whom we cooperate. And three, we do not move people around the world so that they can be tortured."

Asked specifically whether Washington operates secret prisons in Europe, he repeated that Rice will address the issue.

But if such operations were going on "they're the kinds of things that one cannot talk about.

"Why? Because the information would help the enemy. It would compromise the operations and it would put countries who are cooperating with us at risk," he said, stressing that it should not be inferred from his remarks that secret CIA prisons exist.

- AFP /ls

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/181957/1/.html

Tina December 4, 2005 - 10:13pm

So basically she is hinting that these countries were complicit? A veiled warning?

Rice takes firm stand on secret prison controversy

December 05, 2005 21:51 IST

The United States on Monday held its ground in the recent controvery about alleged secret Central Investigative Agency prisons in Europe.

Condoleezza Rice, US Secretary of State, did not directly refer to the reported prisons but defended the practice of shifting terror suspects around for interrogation. She denied the use of torture 'under any circumstances' and challenged allies to come clean about their own practices. Rice is on a four-nation European tour.

In a statement issued before her departure, Rice said - "It is up to those governments and their citizens to decide if they wish to work with us to prevent terrorist attacks against their own country or other countries, and decide how much sensitive information they can make public."

She added that democratic governments the world over face 'hard choices' and they can meet these best if they 'work together'.

The European press has been dominated by stories about 'black site' interrogation centres and CIA flights for Islamic militants. Consequently, the European Union request clarification from Washington about these alleged practices, which would violate international laws.

"The United States has respected - and will continue to respect - the sovereignty of other countries," she said.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/05rice.htm

Tina December 5, 2005 - 1:27pm

Britain's role in war on terror revealed

· 200 ghost flights logged across nearly 20 airfields

· MPs urge government to state level of cooperation

Ian Cobain, Stephen Grey and Richard Norton-Taylor

Tuesday December 6, 2005

The Guardian

The full extent of British logistical support for the CIA's secret "ghost flights" emerged yesterday as Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, said the agency's operations were "a vital tool" in the campaign against terrorism.

The Guardian publishes for the first time today the details of more than 200 flights in and out of Britain of aircraft owned or controlled by the CIA. The agency has used almost 20 airports across the UK during the period when its agents have been snatching terror suspects and taking them to countries where they may be tortured. As well as enjoying access to a number of RAF bases, the agency has been flying in and out of civilian airports across the country. Its destinations include not only major airports such as Heathrow and Gatwick, but small airports at Bournemouth on the south coast and Wick in the north of Scotland.

Last night MPs, who have formed a campaign group to challenge British support for the CIA's so-called extraordinary renditions programme, met for the first time and demanded that the government come clean about the use of UK facilities. The all-party parliamentary group on extraordinary renditions was presented with a report by American legal academics which suggested that Britain may be breaking international law by "acquiescing" in torture.

The CIA has been moving detainees around the world to a number of secret prisons, using aircraft owned by front companies or leased for short periods. Ms Rice said yesterday that "renditions take terrorists out of action and save lives".

Using publicly-available information from the US federal aviation administration, as well as European air traffic data, the Guardian has compiled a detailed log of the CIA's flights in and out of the UK during the period that the rendition programme has been operating.

There have been more than 210 flights in and out of the country since the attacks of September 11. One Gulfstream V executive jet, for example, which has changed its tail number several times and has been linked with a number of abductions, is a regular visitor to Glasgow airport, and also flies in and out of Luton, Northolt and Brize Norton.

Some aircraft have stopped in the UK for short refuelling stops, but at other times they have remained in the country for several days. But there is no evidence that any detainees have been on board aircraft when they have stopped in the UK and many of the flights are thought to be unconnected with renditions.

MORE

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1659057,00.html

Tina December 6, 2005 - 8:30am

Seized, held, tortured: six tell same tale

Ian Cobain

Tuesday December 6, 2005

The Guardian

Mamdouh Habib, 49, an Australian citizen, was caught up in the rendition system after being arrested near the Pakistani-Afghan border shortly after the 9/11 attacks. His lawyers say he was bundled aboard a small jet by men speaking English with American accents and flown to Egypt, the country where he was born. For the next six months, they say, he was held in a Cairo jail, where he was hung from hooks, beaten, given shocks from an electric cattle prod, and told he was to be raped by dogs.

Habib also says that he was shackled and forced into three torture chambers: one filled with water up to his chin, requiring him to stand on tiptoe for hours, a second with a low ceiling and two feet of water, forcing him into a painful stoop, and a third with a few inches of water, and within sight of an electric generator which his captors said would be used to electrocute him. He made statements - which he has since withdrawn - declaring that he had helped train the 9/11 attackers in martial arts. Habib was moved to Afghanistan and then to Guantánamo. Last January he was released without charge and allowed to return to his wife and three children in Sydney.

more

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1659301,00.html

Tina December 6, 2005 - 8:34am

Dec. 5, 2005

Following is a list of 12 high-value targets housed by the CIA.

 Abu Zubaydah: Held first in Thailand then Poland

 Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi: Held in Poland. Previously held in Pakistan/Afghanistan

 Abdul Rahim al-Sharqawi: Held in Poland

 Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri: Held in Poland

 Ramzi Binalshibh: Held in Poland

 Mohammed Omar Abdel-Rahman: Held in Poland

 Khalid Shaikh Mohammed: Held in Poland

 Waleed Mohammed bin Attash: Held in Poland

 Hambali: In U.S. custody. Kept isolated from other high-value targets.

 Hassan Ghul: Held in Poland.

 Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani: Held in Poland

 Abu Faraj al-Libbi: Held in Poland

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Business/popup?id=1375287

Tina December 6, 2005 - 9:29am

EXCLUSIVE: Sources Tell ABC News Top Al Qaeda Figures Held in Secret CIA Prisons

10 Out of 11 High-Value Terror Leaders Subjected to 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques'

By BRIAN ROSS and RICHARD ESPOSITO

Dec. 5, 2005 -- - Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania.

Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.

CIA officials asked ABC News not to name the specific countries where the prisons were located, citing security concerns.

The CIA declines to comment, but current and former intelligence officials tell ABC News that 11 top al Qaeda figures were all held at one point on a former Soviet air base in one Eastern European country. Several of them were later moved to a second Eastern European country.

All but one of these 11 high-value al Qaeda prisoners were subjected to the harshest interrogation techniques in the CIA's secret arsenal, the so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" authorized for use by about 14 CIA officers and first reported by ABC News on Nov. 18.

Rice today avoided directly answering the question of secret prisons in remarks made on her departure for Europe, where the issue of secret prisons and secret flights has caused a furor.

Without mentioning any country by name, Rice acknowledged special handling for certain terrorists.

"The captured terrorists of the 21st century do not fit easily into traditional systems of criminal or military justice, which were designed for different needs. We have had to adapt," Rice said.

The CIA has used a small fleet of private jets to move top al Qaeda suspects from Afghanistan and the Middle East to Eastern Europe, where Human Rights Watch has identified Poland and Romania as the countries that housed secret sites.

But Polish Defense Minister Radoslaw Sikorski told ABC Chief Investigative Correspondent Brian Ross today: "My president has said there is no truth in these reports."

Ross asked: "Do you know otherwise, sir, are you aware of these sites being shut down in the last few weeks, operating on a base under your direct control?"

Sikorski answered, "I think this is as much as I can tell you about this."

more

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1375123

Tina December 6, 2005 - 9:30am

...of this activity is something other than extraordinary renditions. The numbers of flights are simply too large for this scale of programme, unless it is orders of magnitude larger than previously stated (and I don't think it is). Additionally, some of the a/c types make absolutely no sense for that usage. I suspect that much of this is covert logistics for deployed CIA assets. There's a lot of paramilitary types and others out there in the field (unprecedented numbers, in fact) and they've got to require a significant logistical tail, even given the parts that can be picked up by the US military.

JustPlainDave December 6, 2005 - 11:02am

Frameshop: Rice Proclaims Torture 'Lawful'

by Jeffrey Feldman

Tue Dec 06, 2005 at 09:10:07 AM PDT

cross-posted from Frameshop

In her statements about U.S. secret prisons in Europe, Secretary Rice has repeated the word 'lawful' at every opportunity. Notice how she uses 'lawful' in this quote from her press conference with Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel:"The president has made it very clear that US personnel will operate within US law and within our international obligations...We have an obligation to defend our people and we will use every lawful means to do so." (See this article in The Guardian for a full discussion of Rice's visit to Germany)

Rice's repetition of 'lawful' in her statements about torture is a window into how the Bush White House thinks about national defense.

But what should journalists say in response to this claim?

If we listen carefully, we will notice that Secretary Rice always says two things in response to accusations that the Bush White house is torturing prisoners in a network of secret prisons in Europe:

The United States does not torture

The United States uses every lawful means to defend itself

Now, when most people hear the phrase 'the U.S.does not torture,' they assume this means that the United States does not perform certain actions.  Most people assume that Secretary Rice or President Bush--when they say this--that they are denying the practice of certain extreme interrogation techniques that cause incredible pain and suffering.  In fact, that is the exact opposite of what they are saying.  They are not denying these practices at all, but are simply defining those practices as 'lawful.'

Wait a minute--if the whole world thinks that torture is illegal, how can the Bush White House possibly say that torture is 'lawful'?

That is the key question.

Long before the White House set up a network of secret prisons in Europe, and long before they started using torture in these prisons, the President held a meeting with his cabinet member to discuss what would happen if the world found out about it.

In that meeting, the White House concluded that the only way to defend against future accusations that they had broken both U.S. and international laws against torture would be to write their own definition of torture.

And that is exactly what they did.

In the summer of 2002, Alberto Gonzales--who was then the President's Lawyer, or White House Counsel, but who is now the attorney general--gave the President this memo in which he explained that all definitions of torture used in international law were wrong (they were too broad) and that during a time a war, the President was not bound by any law at all in his efforts to protect the American people.  Gonzales based this latter understanding on his reading of the Constitution, which he claimed had a provision which essentially relieved the President of his any obligation to follow the law during war time.

What does this mean?  A few very disturbing things.

Initially, it means that the President has invented a very tricky, new way of going around U.S. law.  Rather than passing laws through the Congress, where they are voted on and then enforced by the Attorney General of the United States, the President solicited a legal position on what was lawful from his lawyer, then promoted that lawyer to be the Attorney General.  And so, there was never a Congressional process that re-defined what was or what was not torture in the eyes of the Constitution.  Instead, the person who came up with the legal strategy to help President Bush avoid prosecution for torture, is now the Attorney General in charge of prosecuting the President for torture.  If  Attorney General Gonzales were to investigate President Bush for violating U.S. torture laws, his investigation would discover that President Bush had not violated the law, based on the memo that Gonzales wrote when he was White House counsel.  This is an insane violation of the separation of powers set up by our Constitution.  So long as Alberto Gonzales is Attorney General, the Department of Justice will never be able to investigate the President for torture.

The torture memo written by Gonzales in 2002 also means that the White House is operating under the assumption that, as long as the country is at war, then it is not possible for the President to violate the law.  They believe that the President can do whatever he wants--whatever they think is necessary--to protect the American people so long as we are at war.  If we were not at war and there were secret U.S. prisons discovered in Europe, then yes:  that would be unlawful.  But since we are at war, it is lawful.  Torture of prisoners when we are not at war?  Unlawful.  Torture of prisoners during war?  Lawful.  So, in the eyes of the Bush administration, torture is only a violation of human rights when it is used outside of the context of war, as happens in China, for example.  But are we are war?  Well, we are and we are not at war.  The 'War on Terror' is not really a war, it's a PR concept like the 'war on poverty' or the 'war on carbs.'  But the war in Iraq is a real war.  Therefore, as long as there are allegations of torture hanging over the head of the White House, it is likely that U.S. involvement in the Iraq war will not end.

Let's return, now, to Secretary Rice's statements that the United States will use 'every lawful means' to defend itself.  The problem with that statement is this:  so long as the Bush White House is operating on the logic of the 2002 Gonzales Torture Memo, and so long as Alberto Gonzales is Attorney General, then there is no action that the President could ever do--no policy of torture, not secret network of prisons--that can ever be defined as unlawful.

That is the problem.  The White House has the Attorney General in their back pocket and they are acting with the full confidence that they will never ever be prosecuted so long as Alberto Gonzales is on their side.

Therefore, to respond to these statements from Secretary Rice about torture and secret prisons being 'lawful,' journalists should immediately start asking questions about the Attorney General and the law.

Who decided that it was lawful for the President to use torture to Protect the country?

Isn't it the Congress' job to write the law and the Attorney General's job to follow it?

Will the President remain above the law so long as he controls Attorney General?

Americans should be very disturbed by Secretary Rice's claim to speak for what is lawful and what is not lawful in this country.  She - nor anyone else in the administration - has absolutely no right to proclaim what is lawful.

Journalists must start demanding that Alberto Gonzales, the Attorney General of the United States, stand up and take responsibility and explain how it is that a memo he wrote as the President's private lawyer is now operating as law in this country--dictating the policy of our military and our international diplomacy.

When the President's lawyer is writing the law, that is not democracy.  It means that the law of the President has become the law of the land.

But that is not the way law works in America. In America, law is created by legislative process, not by fiat. America is not a monarchy, and President Bush is not the king.

© 2005 Jeffrey Feldman

link

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 2:27pm

'Torture' takes on new meaning in post 9/11 US

06 Dec 2005 20:58:13 GMT

Source: Reuters

By Claudia Parsons

NEW YORK, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Torture has always been rife around the world but governments have generally condemned it, denied it, or both.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, though, some experts say the U.S. government has tried a new tactic -- redefining the meaning of torture.

Reports of abuse of prisoners in Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay have incensed U.S. adversaries and alienated allies. This week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has come under pressure in Europe over reports of secret CIA prisons in Europe.

"There was never a world where torture didn't exist," said Manfred Nowak, the U.N.'s Special Rapporteur on Torture, adding it is practiced "in a great many countries around the world."

"But usually, until recently, those governments would never actually admit they're torturing," he said.

"Now we have for the first time both an academic and a political debate saying 'We are living under new conditions. Sept. 11 has changed the rules of the game and that's why we have to rethink the absolute prohibition on torture.'"

Washington says the Geneva Convention does not apply to foreign captives in its "war on terrorism" but human rights activists say it is still bound by the 1984 U.N. "Convention against Torture," to which it is a signatory.

President George W. Bush said again on Tuesday that the United States does not practice torture, or send suspects to foreign countries that torture.

A survey by the Pew Research Center last month showed that 46 per cent of Americans believed torturing terrorism suspects to extract vital information was "sometimes" or "often" justified and 17 per cent said it might be justified "rarely."

SPANISH INQUISTION

ABC News quoted CIA sources last month as saying that six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" had been instituted for top al Qaeda suspects, including slaps and extreme cold.

The most severe is "water boarding" in which a prisoner is bound to a board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet, ABC said. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him, inducing a feeling of drowning.

"The cellophane is a modern addition to a technique that had its origins in the Spanish Inquisition," said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch, adding that the State Department itself defines the technique as torture.

"There's not just confusion between the U.S. definition and everybody else's definition of torture, there's profound confusion within the U.S. government," Malinowski said.

more

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06347086.htm

Tina December 6, 2005 - 5:36pm

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=2359392005

MP wants talks on CIA 'torture flight' stops

EDINBURGH MP John Barrett has called for an urgent parliamentary debate on the use of Scottish airports as re-fuelling stops for so-called CIA torture flights.

Mr Barrett made the call following warnings from legal experts that the British Government may be guilty of breaking international law if it has allowed the flights to land.

The CIA has been accused of transporting suspected terrorists to Eastern Europe so aggressive interrogation techniques outlawed in the US can be deployed. Edinburgh Airport has been named by the American authorities as one of several Scottish airports used for so-called "rendition" stops.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday insisted that America did not practise torture or transport detainees to places where they believed they would be tortured.

But Mr Barrett said:

"Condoleezza Rice must not be allowed to dodge the issue. I will keep up the fight."

Tina December 6, 2005 - 10:22pm
Tina December 6, 2005 - 10:24pm

U.S. says it shifts on prisoner mistreatment

07 Dec 2005 15:18:32 GMT

Source: Reuters

(Adds further quotes)

By Saul Hudson

KIEV, Dec 7 (Reuters) - The United States, seeking to defuse criticism of reports of abuse of prisoners, has changed its policy on interrogating detainees, officials said on Wednesday, but human rights groups were sceptical there was a real shift.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on a trip to Ukraine, said U.S. personnel would be banned worldwide from subjecting prisoners to cruelty.

But London-based Amnesty International said Rice's remarks were "not a major concession". It still wanted serious action by Washington over what it called cases of torture in U.S. bases.

"As a matter of U.S. policy, the United States' obligations under the CAT (Convention against Torture), which prohibits cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment -- those obligations extend to U.S. personnel wherever they are, whether they are in the United States or outside of the United States," Rice said.

U.S. officials said her comments marked a policy shift towards the convention. Previously, the U.S. administration had interpreted the convention as applying only to U.S. territory.

Rice is on a tour of Europe to try to defuse criticism by rights bodies over treatment of prisoners at U.S. bases. These critics suspect the Central Intelligence Agency of running secret prisons in eastern Europe and covertly transporting suspects around the continent. That has led to accusations that the U.S. tactics could lead to torture.

LOOPHOLE

Rights groups have said the United States has exploited a loophole in interpreting international law to mistreat prisoners in places such as Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

Rice was heading on Wednesday to Brussels where she was likely to face sharp criticism despite the defence of U.S. policy she has outlined in Washington, Berlin and Bucharest.

Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot said this week that Rice's answers to the allegations had so far been unsatisfactory and he predicted a "lively discussion" when she met NATO foreign ministers on Thursday.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said it was important to know how Rice's move "is translated operationally".

"We need to know whether they are defining torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment in the way that most people have defined it for many, many years. If so, that should rule out some of the techniques that were authorised for the CIA," said Tom Malinowski, HRW's Washington advocacy director.

He singled out the interrogation technique called "waterboarding", in which the victim is made to feel he is drowning, which Malinowski said was even recognised as torture during the Spanish Inquisition.

....

The move announced by Rice may also be an important concession in U.S. domestic politics where Senator John McCain, a Republican from Arizona and a former prisoner of war who was mistreated in Vietnam, has pressed the administration to close the loophole.

Until Wednesday, the administration, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, had resisted legislation proposed by McCain that was widely backed in Congress. (Additional reporting by Jeremy Lovell in London, and New York newsroom)

Tina December 7, 2005 - 11:35am

ASIA TIMES ONLINE

War crimes made easy

How has the Bush administration gotten away with such apparently illegal acts as hiding intelligence reports from Congress, creating secret prisons, establishing death squads, kidnapping people and spiriting them across national borders, and planning unprovoked wars? Jeremy Brecher and Brendan Smith explain.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL08Ak02.html

Disappearing tricks

German abductions of suspected Resistance members in World War II were a precursor to what the CIA now refers to as "renditions". In between, there have been "disappearances" in Latin America, and other tricks. - Jim Lobe

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL08Ak03.html

Tina December 7, 2005 - 11:47am

Dec 7, 11:06 AM EST

Group Hopes to Use Images in Prisons Probe

By JAN SLIVA

Associated Press Writer

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- Europe's leading human rights watchdog group said Wednesday it soon hopes to be able to monitor satellite images of sites in Romania and Poland as part of its investigation into alleged secret CIA prisons and flights in Europe.

A top Council of Europe official said the body had been granted permission to see images in the archives of the European Union's main satellite center, as well as log books held by the EU's air safety organization.

"They are willing to the give us the information we need, but they need the permission of the national authorities," Rene van der Linden, chairman of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, told The Associated Press. He said all 25 EU nations would have to give permission for such a step.

The assembly has asked Swiss lawmaker Dick Marty to investigate the CIA's reported transfers of prisoners through European airports to secret detention centers. Poland and Romania have been identified by the New York-based Human Rights watch as sites of possible CIA secret prisons, but both countries have repeatedly denied any involvement.

Van der Linden, in Brussels to discuss the issue with EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, said Marty started his inquiry by investigating the 31 suspected flights, but the number has now grown considerably.

Van der Linden said he hoped the Brussels-based Eurocontrol and the Torrejon de Ardoz, Spain-based EU satellite center would provide the requested information soon. Marty had asked for past satellite images of sites in Romania and Poland that were cited by Human Rights Watch as locations of possible CIA secret prisons and details of several dozen suspected flights.

Eurocontrol, also known as the European Organization for the Safety of Air Navigation, develops and coordinates pan-European air traffic management strategies. Member states send Eurocontrol their flight logs of both civilian and military flights.

Van der Linden said the Council was determined to "get to the bottom of the issue and find the truth."

 "It's tremendously difficult to find out, but it's our duty to continue," he said.

more

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SECRET_PRISONS?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=INTERNATIONAL

Tina December 7, 2005 - 3:33pm

US defends prisoners' transfers  

A senior US official has defended the country's treatment of terror suspects and the transfer of prisoners to third countries for interrogation.

State department senior legal adviser John Bellinger told the BBC Washington sought reassurance in those countries that prisoners would not be tortured.

He said allegations that hundreds of suspects were sent around the globe to be tortured were "ludicrous".

Poland is investigating reports the CIA ran secret jails on its territory.

Prime Minister Kazimierz Marcinkiewicz ordered the investigation saying it was necessary to resolve the issue once and for all.

"This matter must finally be closed, because it could prove dangerous for Poland," he said.

A senior military analyst for the New York-based Human Rights Watch, Marc Garlasco, has said that until recently Poland was the chief CIA detention site in Europe, part of a system of clandestine prisons for interrogating al-Qaeda suspects.

Poland's outgoing President Aleksander Kwasniewski has repeatedly denied such reports.

more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4515950.stm

Tina December 10, 2005 - 1:02pm

CIA abduction claims 'credible'  

Allegations the CIA abducted terror suspects and illegally transported them across European borders are credible, an investigator has said.

Swiss senator Dick Marty has submitted a report on the claims, made in the media, to a meeting of the human rights committee of the Council of Europe.

Mr Marty criticised the US for refusing to confirm or deny the allegations.

The US government and its intelligence agencies say that all their operations are conducted within the law.

Call for comment

Mr Marty's findings were released in an official statement by the human rights committee.

"The elements we have gathered so far tend to reinforce the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees - outside all judicial procedure - in European countries," he said.

He went on: "Legal proceedings in progress in certain countries seemed to indicate that individuals had been abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal standards."

Mr Marty added that it was "still too early to assert that there had been any involvement or complicity of member states in illegal actions".

He urged the US to comment formally on the allegations, saying he "deplore[d] the fact that no information or explanations" were given during last week's tour of Europe by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice

bit more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4524864.stm

Tina December 13, 2005 - 10:05am

Europe | 13.12.2005

Council of Europe Investigators Release Initial CIA Findings

The CIA appears to have abducted people in Europe and illegally transferred them to other countries, according to the initial results of a Council of Europe investigation released on Tuesday.

"Legal proceedings under way in certain countries appear to show that individuals were abducted and transferred to other countries without respect for any legal assistance procedures," Council of Europe rapporteur Dick Marty told a meeting of the body's human rights committee in Paris.

The Swiss senator said the results of his investigation lent credibility to reports that the CIA flew terrorist suspects to and from secret prisons in Europe. Marty added that he believed the United States was no longer holding prisoners clandestinely in Europe. It is suspected that the prisoners were moved to North Africa in early November, when reports about secret US prisons first emerged in The Washington Post.

"The elements we have gathered so far tend to reinforce the credibility of the allegations concerning the transport and temporary detention of detainees -- outside all judicial procedure in European countries," he said in an official statement, the first initial findings from the investigation into alleged CIA flights and abductions in Europe.

The rapporteur "demands immediately that all member governments fully commit to uncovering the truth about flights and overflights on their territory in recent years, by aircraft transporting people arrested and detained outside of any legal procedure."

MORE

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1815512,00.html

Tina December 13, 2005 - 12:46pm

CIA abduction claims 'credible'

There are articles in the comments about England, rendition and Binyam Mohammed el-Habashi. Also the initial findings from the Council of Europe.

Tina December 13, 2005 - 9:46pm

INTERNATIONAL SECURITY

By Jimmy Burns, Guy Dinmore, Daniel Dombey, Demetri Sevastopulo and Hugh Williamson

Published: December 14 2005 02:00 | Last updated: December 14 2005 02:00

It began as America's embarrassment. Now it is Europe's dilemma.

For six weeks the administration of President George W. Bush has been forced on to the defensive over prisons allegedly run by the US Central Intelligence Agency in eastern Europe and reports of "ghost planes" ferrying abductees across the continent.

Now a dispute over the alleged kidnapping, detention and mistreatment of a German citizen by CIA agents, and a court ruling in the UK banning the use of evidence obtained by torture, have prompted Europeans to confront a question avoided since the attacks of September 11 2001: how far should they co-operate with the US in the war on terror?

At the heart of the quandary lies extralegal abduction, or "rendition", which the US says is vital for taking terrorist suspects to countries where they can be questioned, held or brought to justice. Its critics allege it paves the way for torture, by allowing detainees to be flown to countries known for brutal methods of interrogation or to jurisdictions where it can be carried out by the US.

For 10 days, Germany's newly elected government has rebuffed questions about Khaled el-Masri, a 42-year-old German of Lebanese descent who claims (see below) that he was the victim of such tactics. Germany has justified its reticence on the grounds that public statements would endanger efforts to rebuild ties with the US.

The stances of governments across Europe - including anti-war administrations such as in France and Spain - have displayed a similar degree of realpolitik. "The fundamental principle in the fight against terrorism is that we are defending values," says Gijs de Vries, counter-terrorism co-ordinator for the EU. "That means we always have to strike a balance between protecting security in the broad sense and protecting other liberties."

Today, however - in Berlin, at least - the equivocation may have to stop. Germany's opposition has convened an emergency debate on the circumstances surrounding Mr Masri's detention in Macedonia on December 31, 2003, the experiences he describes at the hands of US agents in a prison in Kabul and his return home five months later.

Gernot Erler, Germany's deputy foreign minister, admits the US and Europe have "moved in separate directions" on tackling terror. "What's needed is a more fundamental discussion [with the US] on how to pursue the fight against international terrorism," he told the FT.

Across Europe a series of developments have highlighted the uneasy arrangement by which European governments have appeared to collude with the US in practices that they have rarely been willing to defend, criticise or even acknowledge. This week, after more than a month of denials, the Polish government launched an inquiry into claims that it hosted CIA secret prisons on its territory, while senior Romanian politicians - including Adrian Nastase, that country's prime minister in 2001-04 - have argued that Romania should do the same.

more

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/a9b04404-6c47-11da-bb53-0000779e2340.html

Tina December 14, 2005 - 12:22pm

Hate torture? Consider boot camp

HOLD THE PRESSES. I've discovered that the use of torture by the U.S. government is far more pervasive than previously believed. There are major facilities all over the country where thousands of men and women who have not committed any crime are held for prolonged periods while subjected to physical and psychological coercion that violates every tenet of the Geneva Convention.

more

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-boot14dec14,0,7541552.column?coll=la-news-comme
nt-opinions

Tina December 14, 2005 - 12:58pm

 

from the December 06, 2005 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1206/p01s04-usfp.html

US to Europe: Detentions avert terror

Secretary of State, now on a European tour, insists that the US adheres to laws on detainees.

By Peter Grier | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has a message for Europeans: Before they protest about alleged US secret jails on their territory, they should remember that terrorism threatens them, too.

That's a primary argument Secretary Rice made Monday, in a lengthy statement on United States conduct in the war on terrorism. Intelligence gathered during interrogations of terrorism suspects has "saved innocent lives - in Europe as well as the United States," Ms. Rice said before departing for a week-long European tour.

In essence, the secretary of State appeared to be trying to redirect the debate over reported secret detention centers away from the nature of the centers themselves and toward possible benefits - namely, defense against terror attack.

But the negative effect of the images of US mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and elsewhere, plus the unpopularity of the Iraq war among many Europeans, may make it difficult for her to win over the region.

"The real issue here is that no one trusts the United States anymore," says Hurst Hannum, a professor of international law at the Fletcher School at Tufts University in Medford, Mass.

MORE at LINK

Tina December 5, 2005 - 5:49pm

So basically she is hinting that these countries were complicit? A veiled warning?

This would be an open warning in normal diplo-speak, tantamount to yelling "back the hell off". It's fairly undiplomatic and blunt language. Of course, this Administration doesn't actually use real diplo-speak much at the best of times.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 1:41pm

Ms Rice said yesterday that "renditions take terrorists out of action and save lives".

Nobody's objecting to taking the terrorists out of action by imprisoning them, Rice. We're talking about you torturing them after.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 2:32pm

"The captured terrorists of the 21st century do not fit easily into traditional systems of criminal or military justice, which were designed for different needs. We have had to adapt," Rice said.

Which is in fact why this wording was specifically included in the relevant convention:

United Nations Convention Against Torture.

Article 2

2.    No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Getting it yet? No exceptional circumstances?

Any idea how many people have tried to call their circumstances "exceptional" before?

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 2:14pm

I think most people don't believe that all of these flights are prisoner related.

But - why on Earth would they need a minimum of two prisons in at least two different countries for 12 detainees? This makes no logical sense unless the numbers involved actually are larger than 12.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 1:56pm

...going on here than just 12 detainees and 6 "throw backs," I agree. But I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find the total number not breaking 50 - throw backs and all - for the core CIA prison system. I suspect there's a network that pulls them in, prioritizes and evaluates them, and only after a certain point do most end up in the CIA prison system proper. Some targetted snatches will probably go directly into the CIA system proper, but most probably go into something more akin to the general national security prison system of tame allies, like Egypt. IIRC, Arar talked about transiting through a facility in Jordan before being dumped into the Syrian gulag. There's probably more than a dozen facilities in that general category, that either hold their nationals at US behest (and their own interest) or feed into the CIA system proper.

JustPlainDave December 6, 2005 - 2:12pm

Of course, if it's in fact been executed as official policy, fifty people or one person doesn't make much difference.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 2:29pm

I think the obvious reason that the Administration is on afterburners defending this is not because they want to keep torturing but because such things have already been done - probably in the heightened first two years - that the Administration knows will sink them permanently in the court of public opinion if revealed. I think they went too far, and they know it.

I don't think it's about keeping a tool in the toolbox at all any more, it's about guilt and coverup.

I'd bet a considerable sum that there have been deaths, insanities and permanent injuries, and it would not surprise me in the least to find that when the prisoners were moved bodies were dug up and moved - or destroyed - too. They can't let go of the torture issue like they did Social Security because if it comes out fully they are dead.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 2:41pm

maybe thats why they say extradonairy now ;)

Tina December 6, 2005 - 3:14pm

...I can actually see justification in there somewhere for extraordinary rendition into a ghost CIA prison system. Many of these guys are in a status akin to EPWs, without any of the controls on them imposed by a enemy nation. In the context of conflicts between states, one can legitimately do things like discharging prisoners of war at the cessation of hostilities. What one does here, in the context of ideational conflict with implacable enemies, without the guarantees typically offered by opposing states, I dunno. What one does other than snatch these guys and hold them indefinitely, I dunno.

Where it breaks down for me is with the addition of torture, either by US institutions directly or at the hands of tame allies. From a practical standpoint it simply has too many downsides to justify its practice, quite apart from moral repugnance and the apparent impossibility of firewalling it from general practice.

JustPlainDave December 6, 2005 - 2:44pm

... in the context of ideational conflict with implacable enemies...

... how the Cold War with the Soviet Union was presented. The Korean War. The Vietnam War. WWII with both the Japanese and the Germans.

Virtually every war is ipresented in America as being in the context of ideational conflict with implacable emenies. It's practically the only way you can fool Americans into going to war.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 5:21pm

What one does other than snatch these guys and hold them indefinitely, I dunno.

I mean - we patently are doing that, but having the power to do something did not confer the right to do it. Our failure of imagination does not grant license for lifetime detention without trial; my inability to imagine a better resolution to my domestic argument than beating my wife "because she just won't listen" hardly renders it acceptable. We would not, for example, torture bin Laden's uninvolved siblings or three-year-old to make him give himself up, because the fact that a thing might work - or that we can't think of an alternative - does not transmute something into a thing that we may do.

If the administration has got itself into this jam, it's not like the bulk of the world wasn't screaming "don't get yourself into this jam" as they were getting into it. Tough luck - and not the world's problem. Choose better and more effectively next time.

People still don't become "unpersons" because America says so; if they are not specifically covered by treaties which grant additional rights and revoke none, they remain human beings and they have the basic rights of human beings. America did not grant those basic rights, recognizes and confirms them as a founding principle of the republic in the opening paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence and may not revoke them by either its own rules or those of international law. Being born American is not the signifier of some unique status as a winner of a genetic lottery conferring absolute rights to 5% of the planet while the other 95% are granted conditional rights based on good behavior.

The framing of "they lost their human rights for committing certain acts" that I've seen elsewhere [I know you aren't arguing much of this, I just need to set these statements down here in context] is simply absurd and lunatic - you can't lose your human rights, they aren't a set of car keys. Human rights are never lost, they must be removed or denied by someone and the useage of the "passive voice" by those that make this argument may well be indicative of our deep cultural consciousness of shaming actions.

The active party in that framing is only the terrorist; by so framing this we attempt psychologically to proclaim ourselves mere bystanders, witnessing the terrorists shivering in the cold breeze as they exclaim in horror "My goodness! I feel a sudden chill. I think I lost my human rights!". We deny our own culpability; worse for our own humanity we deny even our own involvement. There is no "us" in that phrase - they merely lost their human rights, we did not deny them.

No. They are not losing their human rights. We are removing them - and the way we treat the worst human beings is not a signifier of their lack of human decency but an indicator and an influencer of our own.

I very much agree with the CIA officer's blog in a lot of important respects. America now has ample legal tools to tackle terrorists - use them.

The only difference I would have is that I want the heads of the people who abdicated their responsibility to disobey illegal orders. The point needs to be made completely and permanently clear. I don't really care how many "true patriots" this gathers in; it's irrelevant - they had a higher duty and they were deaf to it.

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 5:32pm

Escher Sketch December 6, 2005 - 5:22pm

...with this one, though in the sense that it is assymetric. The hurdle that one has to hop to go from the ideational to the operational is quite low, as we've seen in recent events in the UK. This one really is an ideational conflict where there is little chance of coming to a political accomodation with the enemy, the others were simply sold as such. These guys aren't tied to a country and that's a huge difference.

JustPlainDave December 6, 2005 - 10:33pm

...whether snatching these guys and holding them with the intent of trying them under the law doesn't violate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I don't think that they presently intend to try them, but they should.

Me, personally, I think the solution is that one comes up with a legal process where the trial happens in camera with security-cleared personnel. They violate whatever equivalent there is of the Official Secrets Act, they go to jail.

This is similar, at least in concept, to what happens in Canada. One change that I would make is that the accused should be let in on the case against them (which we don't necessarily do, BTW).

As to this:

"I want the heads of the people who abdicated their responsibility to disobey illegal orders."

I'm not sure that it's terribly productive for most below the political echelon. CIA operators, by their very nature commit illegal acts - they seek as a profession to get people to betray their country. I find it very difficult to suddenly say that someone in that highly ambiguous profession should necessarily have had the same duty to disobey morally murky orders as someone in the military, for example.

JustPlainDave December 6, 2005 - 5:58pm

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