Nick Hoover | Washington, DC | September 13

The Agonist - I reached Israeli nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu on his cell phone in East Jerusalem about 11 a.m. edt (8 p.m. Jerusalem) August 28. This is the transcript of our nearly half hour conversation, minus the greeting and closure. Vanunu spoke with me knowing that he risked jail time for speaking with foreign press.

If you don't know who Vanunu is, I reccommend you read this profile first.

I�ve been asked that question many times. And I think that when I started working there I was working in the production of plutonium and other nuclear material that is used for atomic bombs, my conclusion was that they were producing a lot of nuclear material beyond anyone�s imagination. That is that they maybe had two, maybe ten bombs in the 1970s, but when I come to work in 1976-77, I found that they were producing plutonium, that is enough, you know, each year for ten bombs, and that continued for many years, and then my conclusion that Israel was had somewhere around 200 nuclear atomic bombs, and then in 1980 they start producing the material for hydrogen bombs which exceeds that amount, actually much more, what�s more, and I decided to start information about the bombs to the public that Israelis had gone beyond any imagination of anyone and there is no justification for hydrogen bombs and neutron bombs too. I think its just production. I also become involved in politics in 1980s. In the university I was studying geography and philosophy and I become in support of the Palestinians and in support of their standing for a Palestinian state, for equal rights the Palestinians. I also came to settle where Hebron was, so all this brought me to become more courageous to speak and to express my views.

When you spoke out, when you became active at the university and for example after you converted to Christianity, do you think that had any impact on your trial and how you were treated afterward?

Of course. First of all, I think the Christianity issue was very, very big, very bad on all these charges. If I had not been a Christian, the Israeli government without difficulty could have swallowed that event of publishing nuclear secrets and would have supported me and given me justice and served right because I related good, important facts. As every man, even the Israelis, the Jewish people could have agreed that it should be out and be reported to people. But here they find out that I am a Christian and I continued to stand very firm behind my Christianity for them it was a trial of a state, of a Jewish nation, Israeli state, the Jewish people, and they didn�t like it they didn�t want to give me the respect of giving help or respect to a man who abandoned his Jewish, the Jewish people. So my Christianity was a big obstacle for accepting what I did. Then the prison they said of me as a spy and traitor and [inaudible]. My view Israel seeks and finds in their minds they hope they can change me. But I didn�t let them and I came out as I was and I have continued to speak and to proclaim all the ideas that they have against me.

Now as to these tapes that the government released where you said certain things about Islam and Judaism. Why do you think they were released?

They released these before my freedom to build a bad image for me during the time that I was going to be freed, and introduced them to show me as a spy, or who knows, but also to credit the bad image that helped the Minister of the Interior of the government to put the restrictions that they come with when I was released. By that material they published about me my political views, my religious views, and my beliefs, it makes it easy to make it for them to put the restrictions on me not to leave the country and not to speak with foreigners, so that was their mission and they succeeded to use this information against me but now when I came out and spoke, I think that the world and that even in Israel the people that saw me and heard me, they started writing that I have the right to speak my views and the real understanding that Israel is a democracy that is not working, and the nuclear secrets, and yet I have the right to believe in what I believe.

Why do you think that Israel is reluctant to speak publicly or hold public discourse about nuclear weapons?

I think that the real reason, the real reason they didn�t want me to speak is simply because they want to continue to silence the nuclear issue, Israel, they want the international community not to write about their nuclear secrets, they want to keep this subject very secretly and without any public any dispute or discussion on the subject of nuclear products in Israel itself. The government, they don�t have any explanation for all that nuclear power and they cannot explain to the people why they need hydrogen bombs. Who needed a hydrogen bomb, for what? Why it is not enough for them to have atomic bombs, why they produced many atomic bombs. They prefer the silence on the subject and they chose me as a sacrifice to silence me and to make me an example for all the others not to speak. So I was a target. And also I think they also didn�t want the world to know about all my suffering through 18 years in prison. And also about my political views that have some very bad news to say. They want to silence all this stuff.

Are you confident that when it comes up for review about your six month period of time where you�re not supposed to speak to foreigners or your year period of time when you�re not supposed to travel abroad are you confident that those restrictions will be lifted?

No, I am not at all confident, actually. Now we have the Supreme Court that imprisoned me, with the vote that they decided that the Israeli government has the right to put these restrictions. So now it is in the hand of the government and they can do what they want. I hope that they will conclude that the restrictions aren�t working because I am speaking and I am living among Palestinians who are regarded as Israel�s enemy despite that they are human beings that live. I am walking around with Palestinians in East Jerusalem and I am meeting Arab media by the Palestinians. I was yesterday in a Palestinian demonstration. So the restrictions look very strictly not necessary. I hope they will lift them in six months.

When you protested at the security wall yesterday is this in defiance of your restrictions?

No, I have the right to be in and to walk around Jerusalem city, and the order that Israel placed is a [inaudible] and I have the right to meet Palestinians. I didn�t break any restrictions yesterday by going to the demonstration at the wall. I expressed my political views like any human being.

How do these restrictions impact your daily life though? Is your freedom of movement restricted within Israel? Do you feel the impact everyday?

Yes I am not allowed if I want to leave the city I should notify the police at least 24 hours before, if I want to sleep in another home I must notify the police at least 24 hours before. I am not allowed to speak to foreigners, I am not allowed to go to any embassy, I�ve got to [inaudible] a different way. These restrictions have been imposing on me threat of arresting me, questioning me. I am under the threat and the Israeli powers, they can do what they want, when they want. They can take me over to the side and stop me or arrest me, no big problem for them. Anything they can find out, they swore that they can get enough really they can do what they want. So yes, that is I don�t feel free in Israel. And I don�t feel safe, because there are many Jewish who are anti- for me. They have anti-political views and anti- my religious views.

Have you come across that in the street, just interacting day to day with Jewish people?

Yes, it happened in the first months, and after that another times, it happened about four times people, Jewish people they, who saw me in the streets and started shouting traitor or you should be [inaudible] and such things. But no physical attacks, only verbal attacks.

Do you feel physically safe though?

I feel safe in the East Jerusalem side, I am around Palestinians who are very friendly and supportive. I am not traveling at all in Israel�s side, I decided I would not go there because if they don�t let me speak to foreigners I would not want to go there and if they gave a bad image of my life I would not go there. So, since I am free, I am staying in East Jerusalem.

Do you find that Israeli officials are keeping an eye on you?

They didn�t do anything to me, no one approached me. But Shabak or Mossad, they have, they are working all the time. They are collecting information and what else they are doing.

Why have you decided to speak to the press before your six months are up?

Because I am a man who believes in the freedom of speech. I believe that human beings have a basic right of freedom to speak. If you are a human being then you should speak and you should express your views and ideas. And I think I have the right to express my views and ideas because as a human that is the only way to be. And I am not damaging Israel, I am not interested in damaging Israel, I don�t have any secrets. So why should I respect these unlawful restrictions not to speak? That�s what I did since I�ve gotten out of prison, and I�ve tried to teach them that they made a mistake and they should end these restrictions of freedom of speech and let me speak and I also think that if I had kept silent it would not have been good for me. It would prove that they are having power and that their power has succeeded. So I have continued to speak.

Now that you are living on the Palestinian side, is it partially because of your views on the conflict, or is it just because you feel safer?

It is because my political view, I believe Israel is not a real democracy, I think Israel is an apartheid state by the religious laws that Israel is imposing and by the discrimination against the Palestinians and I believe that Palestinians have the right to have equal rights and I believe that Israel should be a secular state and I find that my place is among the Palestinians. And really, that is what I chose to believe, in the freedom, to this choice. It is a political view, and also, as my answer to their restrictions, they say I cannot leave the country, so I said I did not want to see your country and I will live with the Palestinians.

How has your family taken to you, now that you�ve been out?

My family actually, since this case has come out, they suffered a lot because they were in the Jewish religion, and they live their lives now but I don�t have any connections to them because they didn�t accept my Christianity. They still have respect for me as a human being but we don�t have any connections. I am respecting their right, we are each one in the life, they suffered a lot in these 18 years, and now they think they have no problem [inaudible].

Are you afraid at all that speaking with me or other foreign press will have any impact on the lifting of the restrictions that are placed on you?

I am speaking but bearing in mind that Israel can do something. I am thinking that I am not doing anything that contrary to the freedom of a democracy, but I am bearing in mind, they can stop me. But even if they start to question me, I believe that they will not find that I did anything wrong. Maybe I broke these restrictions but the restrictions are stupid, that is the problem. They have a problem to prove that I am damaging Israel�s secrecy that I did a very high criminal act but it is not true. It is only speaking. I am repeating the secrets that have been published and all that I�m doing is just expressing my views. So what can the courts or the judge say about a man who is just expressing and exercising the right of freedom of speech.

What are your current views of the way nuclear disarmament has been addressed recently in the region? For example in Libya, and there is pressure on Iran. Do you hope that this will have any impact on Israel?

I think it�s huge that the United States has conquered Iraq and make it pretty clear to the world that Iraq doesn�t have nuclear weapons and next Libya, they don�t have nuclear weapons. Israel now should start giving a serious look at this issue, and to start reporting to the world what they have and to come out and to explain how they are going to start destroying nuclear weapons. Now, again, there is the Iran issue but all the world knows that the real problem is Israel. So in the near Israel should start dealing with the issue of nuclear free and nuclear weapons secret in Israel, because all the world wants to see the Middle East free, and the only obstacle is Israel. But the United States by the Iraq war makes it much more harder for Israel to play games. Now, they find Iran, but all the world knows that the problem is not Iran but Israel.

Do you hope that this will happen while Sharon is still in power in Isreal?

Maybe, who knows, but I say that Sharon was the man who destroyed the Iraq reactor in 1981. If he did that, this act of destroying Iraq�s reactor in 1981, can he be believe that the Middle East should be free from nuclear weapons and then maybe Sharon was ready to go on this policy. I don�t know, but maybe. And maybe he was, it could be easy to bring him to do much more on this subject. In my view it is Israel�s spies in Mossad and Shabak, instead of pressing him on this nuclear issue, they get him into the new intifada, and Sharon was fighting Palestinians, a very hard hand, destroying them and [inaudible] the war. And Israel�s spies give Sharon another subject to deal with instead of dealing with the real subject, nuclear weapons.