It's All Well And Good . . .


. . . to criticize Rick Perry for possibly executing an innocent man, after a full accounting of due process. But it's much uglier when an American citizen is assassinated abroad by President Obama with zero due process.

Addendum What we've witnessed with Awlaki's death is the first official assassination based on a citizen practicing his First Amendment rights. They've offered no evidence and only assertions that he had an operational role in anything. I already know what the objection is: better safe than sorry. No, it's not. If you are going to execute or assassinate a citizen the bar is that much higher--it's the supreme bar--for proving with evidence that he is guilty.


Sean Paul Kelley September 30, 2011 - 7:10am
( categories: Liberties )

From the linked article:
So for you good progressives out there justifying this, I would ask this: how would the power to assassinate U.S. citizens without due process look to you in the hands of, say, Rick Perry or Michele Bachmann?

How about Sarah Palin? Now she could really get that state patrol officer back! She would now have the power of the White House to settle her personal feuds. Don't think she would do it? Her record says otherwise.

Agreed that this is not a unilateral power you grant to anyone in a functioning democracy.

Yet another reason I'm withholding my vote, and my contributions, from Obama next year.

Is this - unilateral ordered killing - the activity of a Nobel Peace Prize winner?

Well, yes, for the first time, now it is.

The Nobel committee should seriously consider revoking the prize from Obama, because it impacts the integrity of the Prize. For the first time in history, the peace prize has gone to someone who supports enhanced interrogation techniques, makes use of the CIA's secret network of prisons, and has unilaterally ordered killings for political purposes.

If that doesn't compromise the integrity of the Nobel Peace Prize, I don't know what would. Maybe they should give the next Peace Prize to Gaddafi or Assad in Syria?

yogi-one September 30, 2011 - 12:57pm

... the killing of Osama Bin Laden was an extra judicial event due only to first amendment differences. After all, he didn't kill anybody himself that we know of.

So killing Hitler or Pol Pot would have been wrong too under the same criteria.... they didn't actually kill anyone themselves.

At a certain point a person can cross the line and become a person that needs to be silenced. It is the definition of that line that is the question, not the fact that the line exists. Cross the line and you have stepped out of the first amendment circle of protection.

We are not talking about Gandhi asking for peaceful protests. We are talking about people that are leading, inciting and directing the killing of innocent people, provoking civil war, directing beheadings as punishment for things that they disagree with, just to make a political/religious statement. They are screaming "fire!" in a crowded theater, and congratulating themselves for the death and destruction that they cause. There is no room for scumbags like that within society.

There are limits to free speech... if I were to promote and direct my followers to hunt you and your family down, torturing you and killing you just because I don't like the clothes you wear, would I have the right to do so by proclaiming "first amendment!"? And if my followers actually did what I directed, but I didn't participate in the actual execution, should I be proclaimed innocent just because I didn't do the actual deed?

Awake September 30, 2011 - 2:08pm

the proof that he was involved and directed 9/11 is pretty much a lock.

Bad decisions make good stories.

Sean Paul Kelley September 30, 2011 - 4:51pm

... that incites foreign nationals to attack US citizens is not subject to loss of US citizenship? Technically that is correct, but morally and practically it is wrong, and I am willing to overlook the fine points of the law in this case. In other words, I do not consider any person that incites foreign nationals to commit atrocities against Americans to be an American.

One problem with categorizing Al-Qaeda members as non-military is that for the rare American that actively sides with the foreign enemy, the laws of US citizenship do not apply. Citizenship can be removed "by entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state." High ranking leaders in Al-Qaeda can and should be, for all practical purposes, be considered officers of the armed forces of a foreign state. Specially if we are "at war" with that de-facto state.

But it all boils down to this. The guy that was blown up was a leader in a group that actively promotes violence against innocent people for his own benefit. He deserved to be blown up, and the world is better off without him.

Awake September 30, 2011 - 6:53pm

oh please, half the damn leaders in the world are guilty of this


“Easy is an adjective used to describe a woman who has the sexual morals of a man.” ~ anon :D

Tina September 30, 2011 - 7:49pm

...for a nation to designate its own citizen as a military target. Personally, I don't like it in that I think it has the potential for justifying and even encouraging potentially massive abuses, but I don't actually know how we get away from it. Otherwise, one gets to a situation where two equally guilty and threatening "bad guys" are standing side by side and one, being a foreign national, is a legal military target and the other, being American, isn't.

"In combat one should be very suspicious of painless moral choices. When you are confronted with a seemingly painless moral choice, the odds are that you haven't looked deeply enough." ~ Karl Marlantes

JustPlainDave September 30, 2011 - 8:30pm

it interesting that death is deserved by anyone who is suspected of advocating anti-american thoughts or actions. As each drone flies and each bomb flies, more people will qualify for execution. The thoughts and actions of those who remain should surely grow more pointed there minds focused by the threat we represent. Perhaps, we will solve the growing problems with ecological collapse before we have to send the drones to Cleveland or Paris. I'm sure there is someone it both cities who has made threatening remarks about some important American.

pihwht October 1, 2011 - 12:55pm

By maintaining the legal separation of civilian and military.

Since when are civilians guilty without a trial?

Since when is being threatening, in a non-imminent sense, cause for preventive killing?

If someone is engaging in terrorist activities, then arrest them and try them. If someone is exercising his or her 1st amendment rights, do not summarily execute them for it.


One owes respect to the living. To the dead, one owes only the truth.

Raja October 1, 2011 - 1:21pm

When the power and authority for this sort of policing is transferred to a global body such as the United Nations, the issue simply disappears. Issues such as targeted assassination etc become a matter for the international community to decide the morality and ethics of; action such as that either derives legitimacy through consensus or is refused.

Note I didn't say "easy", I just said "simple". We may not get there within my lifetime, but it's completely inevitable in the longer term.


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 3, 2011 - 3:05pm

...interests that privilege sovereignty over internationalist arrangements in this domain. It's about the only thing that everyone from the SC to the modern version of the nonaligned movement seems to agree on. One gets UN consensus in this sort of scenario when no one cares (and it's hence unlikely to happen) or when it's manufactured (and hence it's situational and a pretty small step from a sovereign power [or group of powers] just doing it itself). Post-facto review, that I could see (e.g., ICC), but not on the front end.

"In combat one should be very suspicious of painless moral choices. When you are confronted with a seemingly painless moral choice, the odds are that you haven't looked deeply enough." ~ Karl Marlantes

JustPlainDave October 3, 2011 - 5:10pm

a person can cross the line and become a person that needs to be silenced.

And that point is what, as decided by whom? Accepting that a political leader can single-handedly make those determinations is the essence of dictatorship, and I can't really think of any leader that did so without becoming a tyrant. Where I disagree with Sean Paul Kelley is in his belief that it makes a difference whether the person to be snuffed is American or not. But then the Emperor's power of life or death over the conquered peoples is not one I agree with either.

As for Pol Pot and Hitler and the like -- war has not generally involved sending assassination squads after the enemies' heads of state. Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Ferdinand, but neither Britain nor France nor Russia sent assassins after Kaiser Wilhelm, as Wilhelm did not send assassins against Nicholas II, George V, or Clemenceau. The same three plus the U.S. did not send assassins after Hitler. When his chief ministers were captured in the closing days of the war, they were not summarily executed on the orders of Roosevelt, Churchill, de Gaulle, nor Stalin. They were arrested and tried in a court of law. This is for those of you who believe that the "War on Terror" is a war, which you think justifies killing people because of status (hey, they're enemy combatants because they aren't us and they're in an area we claim as a battleground).

The naked exercise of power is a comfort to authoritarians, and a failure to those who believe in liberty.

nihil obstet October 1, 2011 - 3:58pm

of America but also damaged its psyche. The US needs therapy real soon if it wants to save itself from itself.


Sexual inequality is "The Mother of all Inequalities".
Liberate female sexuality and you will eliminate racism, homophobia, financial greed, and violence.

adrena October 1, 2011 - 9:30pm

...this death being an assassination without due process with basically zero data, other than assertions that they guy is dead and that it was a JSOC/CIA op. It's entirely possible that the guy is dead because of use of force in self-defence. JSOC operator shouts at him to give it up, al-Awlaki draws down on him, finds out that he isn't the gunslinger he thought he was...

"In combat one should be very suspicious of painless moral choices. When you are confronted with a seemingly painless moral choice, the odds are that you haven't looked deeply enough." ~ Karl Marlantes

JustPlainDave September 30, 2011 - 2:38pm

...of drone systems.

"In combat one should be very suspicious of painless moral choices. When you are confronted with a seemingly painless moral choice, the odds are that you haven't looked deeply enough." ~ Karl Marlantes

JustPlainDave September 30, 2011 - 2:45pm

and the context of Yemen it was a drone. I think that's a pretty safe assumption at this point. Of course, I could be wrong and if I am I'll be happy to admit it.

Bad decisions make good stories.

Sean Paul Kelley September 30, 2011 - 4:53pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/30/anwar-al-awlaki-killed-yemen


“Easy is an adjective used to describe a woman who has the sexual morals of a man.” ~ anon :D

Tina September 30, 2011 - 8:53pm

WaPo


“Easy is an adjective used to describe a woman who has the sexual morals of a man.” ~ anon :D

Tina September 30, 2011 - 9:22pm

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/11/24/the_case_for_chasing_al_awlaki

Short form: more like second amendment rights, with sprinkles on top.

"In combat one should be very suspicious of painless moral choices. When you are confronted with a seemingly painless moral choice, the odds are that you haven't looked deeply enough." ~ Karl Marlantes

JustPlainDave October 6, 2011 - 5:33pm

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