More On Caucasus War From Nelson Report


I think this is one of the best Nelson Reports I've yet read:

SUMMARY: it may be that a cease-fire now being negotiated by France's Sarkozy will provide Moscow, Tbilisi and Washington with face-saving ways out of the mess in Georgia.

Stay tuned.

But certain to remain a work in progress is how the US and Europe move to address the legitimate great power concerns...and behavior...of Russia. Ten years of not doing so fed directly the current crisis.

Remember..."legitimate" does not have to mean "good"...we're talking about power here, not morality. Morgenthau rules, post Soviet collapse, something the Bush Administration had to learn the hard way, and McCain may not yet grasp.

McCain's statements today apparently seek to "beat" Russia, and recreate the simple, happy days of the Cold War. Obama's statements continue to be unemotional. Whether US voters think "tough" is "smart" could be a decisive question this November.

"Perspective" tonight is from the Nixon Center's Demetri Simes, who knows a thing or two about Soviet brutality. We use it not necessarily because he is 100% right about Georgian provocation, but because if HE sees it this way, so does Russia, and it's Russia we have to deal with here.

"Payback" for Kosovo, NATO expansion, missiles in Poland? Why? If you don't work it out now, will it be easier after a disaster in Ukraine? Lithuania?

More after the jump

GEORGIA...it's still not clear whether French President Sarkozy has brokered a cease-fire, or more correctly, a cease-fire which will hold, in the Georgia/Russia conflict.

What will take the rest of the week to find out is whether a real peace deal, and what borders...guaranteed by an international agreement...can be accomplished.

That depends on whether Putin has what he needs...including his calculation of how this week may impede other goals.

Specifically, what Georgia wants is to internationalize the dispute, with international peace keepers. Russia wants to supply the peace keepers, and no foreign troops in the disputed areas...as formalized in the 1992 and 1994 agreements.

PLEASE note...the Russian troops through which Georgia attacked on Friday were in place by international agreement?

At this point, Moscow sees no reason to backtrack...including no Georgian peace keepers, and it will demand a "no use of future force" agreement from Georgia (as noted, it was Georgia which gave the Russians the excuse for this week's lesson in reality. Life is not fair.)

What Russia demands and will likely get boils down to de-facto independence for the two provinces, but not de-jure independence from Georgia, our experts feel.

Is Ukraine "next"? Most of our experts think not. But watch to see if the Crimea and the Russian naval base at Sevastapol find their way into polemical fights between Moscow and Kiev.

Some here are calling for "immediate" NATO membership for Ukraine to "restrain" Russia. Are they ready to fight a nuclear war for the near abroad? Fortunately, this is cheap rhetoric, and academic, really, since France and Germany have more sense, both have "pro-American" leadership, and so will provide adult supervision.

Still, cheap rhetoric coarsens the discussion and makes rational analysis and action even more difficult.

See, unfortunately, McCain's increasingly inflated rhetoric (his full statement today will be parsed in detail) which may shift the "conflict" to the US presidential campaign.

Here's what we opened with last night: the crisis in Georgia puts everyone in a bind, since the "good guys", aka Georgia, brought much of this on themselves, and the "bad guys", aka Russia, have been warning us since Kosovo what the Kremlin's limits are.

What has not been seriously addressed are the limits of US power, especially given Iraq and Afghanistan, and how much those limits influenced (and will continue to influence) the events in Georgia.

A friend from the defense side of the shop sees things this way today:

"Chris, lot's of analysis about Russia, Georgia etc; but what does this say about the U.S. and the limits of U.S. power -- certainly our friends and allies -- not only in Europe -- will be watching both what we say and what we do. Believe CBS news last night ran a clip of W in full democracy flight in Tblisi 'we will stand with you as a democracy" or something like that.

NOTE: 'with you/not behind you.'

I think this shows the limits of values based diplomacy and new age multilateralism. Values are great but in the real world it's interests (Palmerston) and power (Bismarck --Morgenthau) that counts when push comes to shove. Of course we'll broker a ceasefire etc. But the Russians have effectively sent a message to the Balts/Ukranians and Poles, not to mention on NATO expansion.

I also wonder how the progressive thinkers on the left, Council of Democracies, and right, League of Democracies, will explain how such institutions will work when faced with a Georgia-like contingency. Lots of rhetoric, I'm sure, but beyond that -- what?"

As this Loyal Reader notes, the task facing diplomats and politicians alike is how to deal with reality...power reality...in Europe. Russia is a great power in Europe, it is nuclear armed, it is paranoid, touchy, aggressive, and it has legitimate great power interests.

All the "it's 1938 and we just blinked...again" nonsense implies the Red Army is heading back across Poland and into the Fulda Gap, and the more this kind of "analysis" is trumpeted, the more difficult it will be for the US voters to make any kind of rational guess as to who is more competent to lead...there's always the deadly temptation to presume that "tough" is "safer" than sensible.

So come this Fall, an intelligent McCain/Obama debate would be important, to sound out how the US will work to integrate Russia into the strategic fabric of Europe, instead of marginalizing and hedging against it with NATO expansion, missiles in Poland, et al.

Maybe that WILL turn out to be the rational response. But let's work through the issues first, OK?

McCain sounds like he has already decided to return to the Cold War and "win"...again.

His statement on Georgia today needs to be parsed, almost line by line, for built-in assumptions and misstatements of fact which should cause anyone, on either side of this controversy, to think damn seriously about what it means, on many levels including in the voting booth.

Obama's statements continue to be bland, certainly by comparison, but they do seem to reflect a world in which most of us live.

On the possible implications for the Baltic States, and Ukraine, of the Georgia disaster, here's a second-day analytical note from the Russian (Soviet) expert we quoted last night who must remain anonymous, due to professional affiliation:

"I believe clearly that the linkage here is South Ossetia/Abkhazia vs.
Kosovo. I think the Baltic issue is more clearly linked to the missile
defense systems in Poland/Czechoslovakia. If you are a Morgenthau
realist, which I believe Putin clearly is, then you believe strongly in
proportional response which is what the Russian reaction in Georgia, at
least from their point of view, constitutes.

Also, let us not make the Russians ten feet tall again. Their ability to
project power is limited to the Near Abroad, and involves border areas
which they feel they have a right to defend and even roll back in some
instances. But as for taking over sovereign countries, I am not prepared
to say they have any interest in territorial expansion. They would
rather make money by making it clear they are a player economically as
well as militarily.

Finally, it is worth pointing out, again from a Morgenthau realist
predicament, that the reason we are in this predicament is the very
unrealistic occupation of Iraq, which emboldened the Russians about
Georgia because of American overcommitment and made it very clear that
we could do nothing but huff and puff and blow nothing down. The
Europeans are not ready for Georgia or Ukraine in NATO, but perhaps this
will change."

A Loyal Reader on the more strategic planning side of the shop offers these thoughts:

"I have at least a little sympathy for McCain's approach here. As Russians are fond of saying, 'Ne sluchaino.' It was more than a decade in the making, and it was no accident. The Russians have been pushing Georgia around since independence, not the other way around.

Gorbachev's account of the outbreak of war [in this morning's Washington Post] is very difficult to swallow, and further diminishes him. Would that the people of Grozny-Russian citizens themselves, the last time I checked-aroused similar concern.

On one hand, there's no use in insisting that unlimited NATO expansion could never have provoked the Russians to do things they otherwise might not have done, and one could consider Russian revanchism as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

On the other hand, Russians leaders, like other human beings, do have agency, and their decisions cannot be regarded as mere extensions of our solipsistic selves, directing the entire world with either spiked clubs or olive branches.

If the recognition of Kosovo provoked them, for example, you have to ask what it is they have at stake in Kosovo to begin with. And so on.

The question now is what constitutes a realistic-with-a-small-r and constructive response."

On that, for "Perspective" tonight, we re-print the Nixon Center's Demetri Simes...a refugee from Soviet Russia...very frankly applying some tough-love analysis to Georgia. A world which McCain and his advisors seem to meet at a tangent, at best.

Against or parallel to all of the above, here's McCain today, and you need to read it all. First, he repeats yesterday's apparently vital theme of "Christianity", which as used, seems intended to draw invidious comparison to memories of the Godless Soviet Beast.

(A millennium of the Russian Orthodox Church does not count?)

And he ends with the emotional statement "we are all Georgians"...a repeat of the sort of "support" offered by President Bush which seems to have fed President Saakashvili's sense that he could use military force against Russian "peacekeepers", and not provoke a militant response.

In between, he draws a picture of a totally unprovoked Russian attack on a peacefully supine Georgia which is misleading, at best. Yes, of course Moscow was looking for an excuse to "teach Georgia a lesson", but in McCain World, no Georgian attack preceded Russia's retaliation, the only motive here is to crush freedom and democracy.

So in McCain World, it's all explained by Russia as Evil...if there is no reason or justification for Russian action, why bother to understand it? Shades of Bush/Rummy/Cheney Iraq 2003, and like their claims, and have we not seen the costs of this mindset?

NONE of this is to say the Saddams and Putins are good guys, or doing good things, or that they should be indulged and encouraged without concern or action...so please spare us the indignant emails on those points.

The question here is what to do to make things better, not worse.

Power is brutal, mean, unfair and deadly real...hard enough to grasp and act upon at the best of times.

Here's McCain World:

York, PA
August 12, 2008

John McCain: "As you know, over the past several days, we have seen that international aggression is, tragically, not a thing of the past. We thought we'd put a lot of that behind us at the end of the twentieth-century. But now we find it's rearing its ugly head in the twenty-first. The small nation of Georgia has been subject to Russian attacks that threaten its very existence.

"Some Americans, when they read this news, may wonder where Georgia is or why we should care about the conflict between Georgians and the Russian army. It's after all a small, remote and obscure place. But history is often made in remote, obscure places. And it's being made in Georgia today.

"Georgia itself, my friends, has a long and remarkable history. It was a fourth-century convert to Christianity, one of the first nations on Earth to convert to Christianity -- if you go to Georgia, as I have several times, you'll see churches that go back to the fourth- and fifth-century -- and it's been a part of the grand sweep that comprises Western civilization. But because of their location, their history hasn't been easy. Through the centuries, they have seen invasions and attacks from Mongols, Russians, Turks and Persians. And through it all, they maintain their language, their cultural identity, and their national pride. And as you know, they were part of the Soviet Union and were able to achieve their independence when the Soviet Union disintegrated. And they're facing terrible trials today, but they'll get through this, too.

"And, my friends, and I'll talk about this more in a minute -- but they're at a strategic crossroads. There's a pipeline, an oil pipeline, Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan, which brings oil from the Caspian to points west and traverses Georgia -- that's the very pipeline that the Russians tried to bomb. And I don't have to tell you about the price of oil and disruption of oil supplies.

"In this country -- it's that little country, a country whose territorial integrity, independence and sovereignty NATO countries reaffirmed at their summit in April -- terrible violence has occurred. Now let me just remind you exactly what has taken place here.

"On Friday, Russian tanks and troops moved through the Roki Tunnel, across an internationally-recognized border, and into the Georgian province of South Ossetia. Two years ago, I traveled to South Ossetia, my friends, and we went through this barricade, and as soon as we got into this place, which the Russians are maintaining hundreds and now thousands of troops, there's this huge billboard and it said, 'Vladimir Putin, Our President.' Have no doubt about Russian ambitions in this area.

"The Russian government stated it was acting only to protect Ossetians, and yet, on Saturday, its bombing campaign encompassed the whole of Georgia. Hundreds of innocent civilians have been wounded and killed -- possibly thousands. Military bases, apartment buildings, and other infrastructure all came under Russian fire. And the Russian Black Sea Fleet began concentrating off of the Georgian coast.

"Before the weekend ended, Russian troops drove the Georgians out of South Ossetia and stepped up their offensive in the region of Abkhazia -- Abkhazia is another area that the Russians have controlled in violation of Georgian territorial integrity. And Georgia asked for a ceasefire, and Russia responded by bombing the Tbilisi Airport.

"Yesterday, Russian troops advanced on one city after another. Gori, Senaki, Poti, and other cities were attacked. In 2006, I visited Senaki and reviewed the Georgian troops who had served with honor beside American soldiers in Iraq -- 2,000 of them served beside American soldiers in Iraq, and we're proud of that.

"President Medvedev stated that he has halted the offensive, but reports indicate that Russian military forces have continued attacks in some areas and the situation remains fluid and dangerous. Foreign Minister Flavor announced that Russia seeks regime change in Georgia, and that it's democratically-elected president 'better go.'

"In the face of this threat, the leaders of Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine and Latvia -- you know there's a common thread there amongst them, they all suffered under Soviet domination -- they've all announced that they'll travel to the region, and the French president is in Moscow in an attempt to help resolve the crisis. They understand that it's a responsibility of the leading nations of the world to ensure that history continues to record reform and make progress toward respecting the values and security of all free people.

"This is the situation in Georgia as we meet here this morning. The impact of Russian actions goes beyond their threat to a democratic Georgia. Russia has used violence against Georgia to send a signal to any country that chooses to associate with the West and aspire to our shared political and economic values.

"My friends, we learned at great cost the price of allowing aggression against free nations to go unchecked. With our allies, we must stand in united purpose to persuade the Russian government to withdraw its troops from Georgia. There must be an independent, international peacekeeping force in the separatist regions. And we should ensure that humanitarian aid can be airlifted to Georgia's capital, and stand ready to help our Georgian partners put their country back together. And we must make clear to Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability, and piece of that world.

"My friends, today the killing goes on and aggression goes on. Yet, I know from speaking this morning to the President of Georgia, Misha Saakashvili, who I've known for many years, that he knows that the thoughts and the prayers and support of the American people are with that brave little nation as they struggle today for their freedom and independence. And he wanted me to say thank you to you, to give you his heartfelt thanks for the support of the American people for this tiny little democracy far away from the United States of America. And I told him that I know I speak for every American when I say to him, today, we are all Georgians."

-0-

"PERSPECTIVE"...the Nixon Center's Demetri Simes, as a Soviet Jew driven from his country, is not naive on any aspect of the Georgia situation. His description of reality needs to be studied in Camp McCain and Obama Land equally:

"It is remarkable, but probably inevitable, that so many in Washington have reacted with surprise and outrage to Russia's response to President Mikheil Saakashvili's attempt to reestablish Georgian control over South Ossetia by force.

Some of the angriest statements come from those inside and outside the Bush administration who contributed, I assume unwittingly, to making this crisis happen. And like post-WMD justifications for the invasion of Iraq, the people demanding the toughest action against Russia are focused on Russia's lack of democracy and heavy-handed conduct, particularly in its own neighborhood, and away from how the confrontation actually unfolded. Likewise, just as in the case of Saddam Hussein, these same people accuse anyone who points out that things are not exactly black and white, and that the U.S. government may have its own share of responsibility for the crisis, of siding with aggressive tyrants - in this case, in the Kremlin.

Yet many both outside and even inside the Bush administration predicted that the U.S. decision to champion Kosovo independence without Serbian consent would lead Moscow to become more assertive in establishing its presence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

The Kremlin made abundantly clear that it would view Kosovo's independence without Serbian consent and a U.N. Security Council mandate as a precedent for the two Georgian de facto independent enclaves. Furthermore, while President Saakashvili was making obvious his ambition to reconquer Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Moscow was both publicly and privately warning that Georgia's use of force to reestablish control of the two regions would meet a tough Russian reaction, including, if needed, air strikes against Georgia proper.

So it would be interesting to know what President Saakashvili was thinking when, on Thursday night, after days of relatively low-level shelling around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali (which both South Ossetians and Georgians blamed on each other), and literally hours after he announced on state-controlled TV the cessation of hostilities, he ordered a full-scale assault on Tskhinvali. And mind you, the assault could only succeed if the Georgian units went right through the battalion of Russian troops serving as international peacekeepers according to agreements signed by Tbilisi itself in the 1990s.

Under the circumstances, the Russian forces had three choices: to surrender, to run away, or to fight. And fight they did - particularly because many of the Russian soldiers were in fact South Ossetians with families and friends in Tskhinvali under Georgian air, tank, and artillery attacks. Saakashvili was reckless to count on proceeding with a blitzkrieg in South Ossetia without a Russian counterattack.

Now the Bush administration and outside commentators are appalled by Russia's disproportionate response. But proportionality is in the eye of the beholder. In July 2006, after Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed three others--smaller losses than those inflicted on the Russian troops in Tskhinvali--the Israelis launched a massive bombardment of Lebanon, including Beirut, killing more than a thousand Lebanese, many of them civilians.

When some in the U.N. Security Council sought to condemn Israel's "disproportionate response," the United States acted as Israel's staunchest defender and prevented any resolution critical of Israel.

Notwithstanding this background, the United States has no good choices in dealing with the crisis. There is no realistic way to remove Russian forces from Abkhazia and South Ossetia short of a major war with Russia, which no responsible American political leader would advocate at this point. But whatever Saakashvili's responsibility is for the confrontation, America cannot allow an ally to be soundly defeated or especially overthrown by an insurgent Russia.

Accordingly, the first priority for the United States should be to make abundantly clear to Moscow that any attempt at forceful regime change in Georgia will have severe consequences for the U.S.-Russian relationship and that the United States would help Georgia to resist on the ground.

Though the U.S. will not send troops--and Moscow knows it--we can provide significant military assistance to Tbilisi and greatly complicate a Russian military advance. Bringing Georgian troops back to their country from Iraq is one step on this path.

While the Georgian army is no match for the much larger Russian forces, it is potent after years of double-digit budget increases and American equipment and training. Also, unlike in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, where most of the population is friendly to the Russians, any Russian attempts to occupy Georgia would likely encounter massive popular resistance.

Moscow disavows any plan to conquer Georgia, and the Bush administration should hold them to their word, both through diplomacy to the extent possible, and a display of resolve if necessary. When this has been accomplished, however, we should look for ways to work with Russia in the name of essential American interests. We should also disregard the hysterical diatribes of Saakashvili's American champions, who protest too much--perhaps because their irresponsible encouragement of the Georgian president was a contributing factor on the road to the war.

Enough said at this point.


Sean Paul Kelley August 13, 2008 - 5:27am
( categories: Caucasus )

There is always this tendency to connect American involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan with inability to operate on other fronts. Let us just say that even if the US had its hands free, intervention in Georgia would have been dangerous to impossible. Naval forces cannot enter the Black Sea with Aircraft Carrier support given the Straits conventions and Turkey cannot be counted to provide airbases. Thus you would expect that everything would go through airborne operations which I am pretty sure Russia could disrupt by simply rendering unusable every single airfield in the area. Russia may be limited but its weaponry is decent enough especially when it works from well entrenched positions with decent supply lines and proper aircover. There is nothing the US can do in the Russian near abroad without risking nuclear war. So we should better get used to Russian actions or simply devise (as you note above) ways to integrate them in European insitutions without being swayed by the right wing nationalisms of the Lithuanians and the Ukrainians and the reflexive fear of the Poles. They do not represent Europe, nor should they represent the west.

p.s. The Ukraine should be safe for now simply because it is too large and too much of a bruhaha to deal with should one intervene militarily, but it does have 40% Russian speakers in territories contiguous to Russia. And as you noted the issue of the Crimea is bound to re-emerge. Russia dealt from a position of weakness in the years after the demise of communism and as any power would do it is repairing its position. Weather it is moral or not it is irrelevant. We need to face the reality and work hard to make them part of our institutions.

dimik72 August 13, 2008 - 12:19pm

in the Russian mind, I think, as long as it can be contained and managed. True, it's the breadbasket of the region, but it needs Russian energy just as much as Russia needs Ukrainian wheat and potatoes. An occasional political intervention may be all that is required on the part of Russia to remind the Ukrainians of their place.

Petronius August 13, 2008 - 1:27pm

The Ukraine is extremely important to the Russians. It's priovides strategic depth. Without it, Moscow and Petersburg are easily captured. The Russians will not tolerate Western forces or the Western Alliance to operate there. It won't happen.

“Is not our first thought to go on the road? The road is our source, our vault of treasures, our wealth. Only on the road does the ‘traveller’ feel like himself, at home.”
Ryszard Kapuscinski

Sean Paul Kelley August 13, 2008 - 10:43pm

is much a dick head as the Georgian President and insists on poking a stick in Putin's side? Very rash refusing Russia to continue to use the port. Perhaps he'll change his mind when the tanks starting rolling again? Wave good-bye to your port, you silly man!

The bear is finished his long hibernation and is not about to go back to sleep.

No way, US satellites didn't see troop movements both before Georgia launched their troops and when Russia was preparing their counter attack. Putin and Bush know the movements of the two militaries. What's anyone going to do about it? The US can't respond and NATO won't.

Stupid man in Georgia deployed his troops and it was known beforehand by the west and Russia how this would end. It's all over except the shouting which Condi is very good at, but that's the totality of her expertise.

Good review of the strategic interests at Stratford.com, Geopolitical Intelligence Report titled, “The Russo-Georgian War and the Balance of Power by George Friedman” What applies to Georgia, ditto for the Ukraine--it's Russia's sphere of strategic influence! Free membership is available at Stratford for reading the article.

The West has been told, "Get out of my face!" The tanks represent, "No trespassing signs."

canuck August 14, 2008 - 1:06am

The US needs Mexico and Canada, but doesn't want to invade or occupy them--nor does it need to.

The Ukraine has a large fairly modern military. Moscow isn't going to try to take it head-on. When, and if, the referendum for NATO membership comes up, you can expect all sorts of dirty tricks to make sure that it doesn't pass. Considering the level of corruption in the Ukrainian government, that shouldn't be difficult.

Instead of military confrontation, look for political manipulation. It's much cheaper.

Military action by Moscow in Georgia was less of a problem--the Georgian military is hopelessly outclassed. It looks as if Russia will wind up with what it was really after--control of Abkhazia.

FWIW, it's just as easy to get to Moscow from Minsk (407 miles) as from Kiev (471 miles). I expect that Belarus will continue its cozying up to Moscow.

Petronius August 14, 2008 - 2:12am

Moscow could scuttle Ukraine's NATO bid by internal shenanigans much easier and cheaper than pulling what they did in Goergia.

“Is not our first thought to go on the road? The road is our source, our vault of treasures, our wealth. Only on the road does the ‘traveller’ feel like himself, at home.”
Ryszard Kapuscinski

Sean Paul Kelley August 14, 2008 - 2:46am

if the Ukraine refuses Russia access to the Baltic Sea port. Russia may not have the luxury of the slower diplomacy route and will come down hard on the Ukraine if they won't change their mind.

The Ukraine is playing a dangerous game threatening Russia. Since this is the second leader to challenge Putin, I'm wondering what assurances they've been given that emboldens them? It's difficult to believe that two political leaders are willingly committing Hari kari! But doubt Russia would employ an identical military strategy in the Ukraine--they'll avoid a frontal assault because of the Ukraine's superior troop strength.

Yushchenko is pals with idiot-boy, Saakashvili, who believed NATO or the United States would come riding in on a white horse and rescue him from his folly.

------

This looks like an insightful book about the Russian political psyche;

Getting Russia Right by Dmitri Trenin

Background of the author

canuck August 14, 2008 - 5:50am

Thanks for the link to the intro of the book. I will have to read it as time permits.

Dmitri Trenin's article about the Russo-Georgian War:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=20373&prog=zru

The Kremlin's message is crystal clear: Don't tread on me. Or, it's realpolitik, stupid!

liquid August 16, 2008 - 7:40pm

are actually more vulnerable from Estonia and Latvia, which are both NATO countries and which are both closer in proximity to St. Petersburg and Moscow than Ukraine.

Still, I agree that Ukraine is very important to Russia.

liquid August 16, 2008 - 4:37pm

Though the U.S. will not send troops—and Moscow knows it—we can provide significant military assistance to Tbilisi and greatly complicate a Russian military advance.

How the hell is that possible without further escalation?

COL. SAM GARDINER: Absolutely. Let me just say that if you were to rate how serious the strategic situations have been in the past few years, this would be above Iraq, this would be above Afghanistan, and this would be above Iran.

On little notice to Americans, the Russians learned at the end of the first Gulf War that they couldn’t—they didn’t think they could deal with the United States, given the value and the quality of American precision conventional weapons. The Russians put into their doctrine a statement, and have broadcast it very loudly, that if the United States were to use precision conventional weapons against Russian troops, the Russians would be forced to respond with tactical nuclear weapons. They continue to state this. They practice this in their exercise. They’ve even had exercises that very closely paralleled what went on in Ossetia, where there was an independence movement, they intervene conventionally to put down the independence movement, the United States and NATO responds with conventional air strikes, they then respond with tactical nuclear weapons.

Here's the Georgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on Blogger.com, since Russia is blocking access to government sites. They are going to quickly lose whatever "understanding" realists attribute to the situation if the military doesn't reign in their separatist standbys. Undisciplined troops could be a great job opportunity for mercs.

Lesly August 13, 2008 - 1:05pm

COL. SAM GARDINER: "First of all, I think they [Russia] believe the United States was going to intervene."

The US is spread too thin in Iraq and Afghanistan to intervene. Certainly, the US with all its spy satellites, etc. could have told Saakhashvili that Russian forces were at jumping off points to quell his invasion of South Ossetia. Nope . . . either he did not care or they hung him out to dry. Saakhashvili & South Ossetia Georgian War = Ohlmert & Lebanon War of 2006 . . . . political career over.

These are some interesting document from, which I believe tells more about the facts, but more importantly the misrepresentation of facts by Saakhashvili:

www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/files/WP_Saakhashvili_14_August_2008.doc

www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/files/WP_Kagan_11_Aug_08.doc

I found them while I was searching for the cease-fire agreement.

liquid August 16, 2008 - 4:58pm

Precision weapons are useless unless you have air superiority with which to deliver them. The US will never have that over the Russian near abroad without bases close by and without aircraft carriers. Moreover, the US may not want to test its F-16s and F-15s against the more advanced Sukhois, planes which seem to have better Air to air missiles and better dogfighting capacity, plus the advantage of flying from their own bases. But what are we talking about. Such confrontation never took place during the cold war and will not take place now. Especially in a period of an economic melt-down.

Another thing, can you imagine how easily a few sunburn cruise missiles can end up in Iran if you piss the Russians off. Can you think of the effect of a few Igla shoulder launched missiles in the hands of the Taliban? Russia as a threat to the west (which historians might argue it never was) was containable. Russia as a force defending its sphere of influence is unbeatable.

dimik72 August 13, 2008 - 1:28pm

Such confrontation never took place during the cold war

I think this is a good point. Its one thing to loose to the Sukhoi fighters in the Indian air force but there was the excuse that the US did not use AWACs in the battle.

Joaquin August 13, 2008 - 3:33pm

Pentagon denies it will control seaports, airports in crisis with Russia

MSNBC News Services
updated 1:48 p.m. ET Aug. 13, 2008

TBILISI, Georgia - President Mikhail Saakashvili told his people Wednesday that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's seaports and airports as part of a humanitarian aid mission amid Georgia's battle with Russia, but the Pentagon quickly shot down the claim.

Bush announced the U.S. humanitarian effort prior to Saakashvili's comments, which came in a televised address to his nation. Bush said the mission had already begun and involved U.S. aircraft as well as naval forces.

Saakashvili then told Georgians: "You have heard the statement by the U.S. president that the United States is starting a military-humanitarian operation in Georgia. It means that Georgian ports and airports will be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry in order to conduct humanitarian and other missions. This is a very important statement for easing tension."
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Pentagon press secretary Geoff Morrell quickly countered: "We are not looking to, nor do we need to, take control of any air or seaports to conduct this mission."

"The role of the U.S. military is strictly to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian assistance to the victims of this conflict," Morrell said.

In addition, the U.S. will inform the Russian military of humanitarian flights into the capital Tbilisi and rely on those contacts to avoid any incident, NBC's Jim Miklaszewski reported from the Pentagon.

Still, the presence of U.S. military forces delivering aid to Georgia could ratchet up tensions with Russia, and at the same time deter Russia from targeting the ports.

Janusz Bugajski, director of the new democracies program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said Bush's actions should "persuade Russia from any further aggression."

"I wouldn't stake a lot of money on it, but I wouldn't think Russia would want to provoke something with the United States," Bugajski said.

more

Tina August 13, 2008 - 4:20pm

By Tim Johnson | McClatchy Newspapers

BEIJING — In a bikini version of real-life conflict, the Georgian and Russian women's beach volleyball teams met in the sand Wednesday, and underdog Georgia squeaked out a victory in three sets — to the delight of the Chinese crowd.

But animosity boiled over after the match, when the Russian competitors refused to acknowledge that their side actually lost to Georgia.

Alexandra Shiryaeva, one of the two Russian players, sneered that both Georgian players are native-born Brazilians who only recently obtained Georgian passports so they could play in the Olympics.

"They don't even know who the Georgian president is, how can you call them Georgians? They are Brazilians and that is who we played against today," Shiryaeva said. Her partner on the sand patch, Natalia Uryadova, echoed her feelings: "We're not actually playing against the Georgian team."

Georgian Volleyball Federation President Levan Akhvlediani called the Russians "bad losers" and said the 21-10, 20-22, 12-15 victory for his nation's team was "wonderful for the Georgian people."

Looking tired but gleeful, Akhvlediani said volleyball is a huge sport in Georgia, supported heavily President Mikheil Saakashvili's wife, a former volleyball player. He said the victory provides happiness to a 35-member Georgian Olympic squad that has been on edge since war erupted last week between Georgia and Russian over the South Ossetia region.

"I didn't sleep since the war," Akhvlediani said. "I sleep three hours, two hours, four hours. Every morning, (I'm) calling my family, 'What’s going on?' "

The volleyball match up probably would have gone unnoticed had it not been for the violent flare-up between the two nations. The Russian team was seeded 15th and the Georgian team 22nd coming into the games, and both had already lost their first two contests.

more

Tina August 13, 2008 - 4:47pm


This is not 1968 – Rice Tells Russia

The U.S. Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, said what Russia has done was “well beyond anything that is needed” for protection of its peacekeepers and population in South Ossetia, Condoleezza Rice, the U.S. secretary of state, said at a press conference on August 13.

In strongly worded remarks made few hours after the U.S. President Bush’s August 13 statement on Georgia, Rice said: “This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russian tank threatened its neighbors, occupying the capital, overthrow the government and get away with it; things have changed.”

“When you start bombing ports and bombing city like Gori… that is well beyond anything that is needed to protect Russian peacekeepers and that is why Russia is starting to face international condemnation for what it is doing.”

Rice has again called on Russia to follow its commitment on ceasefire. “Those operations must stop and must stop now,” she said.

She has also denied that sending of U.S. navy and military aircraft to shop humanitarian aid in Georgia was a sign that the United States planned to take control over of key facilities in Georgia.

President Saakashvili told CNN shortly after the U.S. Secretary Rice press conference that he was “satisfied” with her rhetoric. “She is absolutely right; this is an attempt to repeat 1968,” Saakashvili said.

Meanwhile, Russian Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov, said on August 13 as quoted by the Russian news agencies: “Russia has warned the United States that it was playing a dangerous game.”

He added that Moscow was warning Washington against arming Georgia, which, Lavrov, said was considering a military adventurism.

Petronius August 13, 2008 - 8:47pm

Does anyone have a link to the text of the agreement between Georgia and Russia? Almost any language except Georgian would be fine (Heaven help me, I can't make any sense of that one).

Cпасибо!
P.

Petronius August 14, 2008 - 5:15pm

I have been looking for the same. In Russian as opposed to French or Georgian.

liquid August 16, 2008 - 5:33pm

seen the text posted anywhere in any language. I noticed around that the talk is about the 6 point plan but also some additional points and documents mentioned, but don't say what they are. It seems very odd.

Tina August 16, 2008 - 7:45pm

Also, I have still not found it . . . even Googled "Russie Géorgie cesse l'accord de feu" and in Russian.

Ну ну . . .

Most comprehensive article about the provisions of the cease fire I found on RIA Novosti:

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080813/116020948.html

In any event, all that empty bluster by w and condi about the cease fire (the leave now rhetoric) - prior to the cease fire actually being signed - did not mean jack, until it was signed by both parties to the conflict.

liquid August 16, 2008 - 8:02pm

proposed by Colonel Patrick Lang:

"Let's make a deal...No expansion of NATO on the borders of Russia in return for a commitment on the part of Russia that there will be no further introduction of Russian Republic forces or "volunteers" into former parts of the USSR that are now http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2008/08/lets-make-a-dea.html?cid=126518350#comments>independent."

------

Makes sense to me.

canuck August 15, 2008 - 3:20am

MOSCOW, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Russia said on Friday its forces had seized U.S.-made weapons from a Georgian military base near the town of Senaki, but added there had been no gunfire in Georgia in the past 24 hours.

"Our forces have seized 1,728 arms in Senaki," Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's General Staff, told a news conference.

Nogovitsyn expressed fresh doubts about the nature of U.S. cargo being dispatched to Georgia. "We would like to know whether there is a humanitarian or some other kind of military cargo, but we don't have this information." (Reporting by Dmitry Zhdannikov and Conor Sweeney)

Tina August 15, 2008 - 5:59am

by Nicholas Benton, owner/editor of the Falls Church News Press, posted at ePluribus Media

It must be appreciated that the current Russian military operation in Georgia comes in the context of eight years of a profoundly-destructive Bush administration thuggish, unilateralist foreign policy. The reckless Bush policy, including its unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq, has heightened tensions throughout the world and driven angry wedges where bridges could have been built.
Now, Russia is reacting to a perceived threat on its border much as it was accustomed to doing in the old Cold War days. They're not the good guys in this, but it is clear that the U.S. has been the bad guys for way too long.

For Sen. John McCain to react like a Bush neo-conservative cowboy to the Russian operation is to deepen the conviction of the American public that he'll be more of the same if elected. It has good reason to.

Daring to evoke the Cold War in his "get tough" stump speech Tuesday, McCain was propped up by his top foreign policy and national security adviser Randy Scheunemann, who has direct ties to the same posse of Project for a New American Century (PNAC) "chicken hawks" that originally bum-rushed Bush into invading Iraq.

MORE at the link.

Chickadee August 15, 2008 - 12:21pm

Obama is not the answer either. We seriously need another viable political party in this country. I am tired of the Lesser of Two Evils strategy for electing national political leaders.

liquid August 16, 2008 - 9:05pm

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