A Global Conversation No One Wants To Have


originally posted 10:39PM May 1.

This post by Don reminded me of a conversation I had with two young female German environmental workers while I was in Ethiopia. It started out innocently enough with me proclaiming that America in general just doesn't do enough about global climate change and that until George W. Bush was gone, in particular, we wouldn't be a constructive member of the global debate. Then the debate shifted, as I asked several questions about the Ethiopian environment and the young ladies' role in monitoring it and helping to improve it.

"How bad is the soil erosion here," I asked.

"Pretty bad, but not the worst," replied Kat. "80% of the population is engaged in subsistence farming of one sort or another so they're pretty hard on the soil."

"And the air quality?"

"Good, but occasionally polluted air drifts in from the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. But overall decent enough."

"And the standard of living?"

Continued after the jump.

"Stable, but not moving upward."

And that's where it got interesting. We had a long debate about the merits of development and debt forgiveness. Then we talked about the difference between our way of life and theirs; how what the Ethiopian's want, all 73 million of them, is to live like us. All three of us agreed that the world cannot sustain all 5+ billion people with an American lifestyle. The consensus was: "Not gonna happen."

Then I interjected, "That's a conversation we've not had with the people of the 3rd world. I don't think they are going to take kindly to be told they cannot live like we do."

At that point both ladies moral superiority--well deserved in the sense that they had sacrificed much to help Ethiopians--was completely deflated. There was a bit of defiant denial at first, as well, but then they realized how much a part of the problem their lifestyle at how was and how dire, serious and grim the real conversation was going to be.

It was a tense conversation between 4 very liberal, open-minded people with a genuine concern for the future of the planet. Four people who had all, in their own way really sacrificed to make the world a better place. Four people who realized it would take much, much more than they imagined and cause much, much more devastation regardless the outcome.

You see, Don's right. It's not us who are or will sacrifice. It's always someone else. Even those of us who mean well and do good.

Pretty shitty dilemma, ain't it?


Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 11:46pm

I'm taking a human biology course online ... and we're discussing the ethics of bio "pharming", embryonic stem cell research and the like. It got me thinking how incredibly arrogant we all are ... the we meaning westerners of a certain class and education. Here we are arguing the merits and ethics of advanced technological bio-medicine, and over 1,000,000 Sub-Saharan Africans a year die of Malaria!

And to bring it closer to home, I don't know how many countless thousands of Americans loose feet to Diabetes for want of basic preventative care.

So yes, the basic conversation is: someone does always lose. And what we've done brilliantly in this country is give the *illusion* that with enough hard work and gumption (gosh darn it) ... you too can make it to that life style. You can drive a hummer or even a hybrid if that's your choice, have a nice big house with central A/C and passive solar design maybe to stave off your angst about the environment filled with every kind of media junk you can ever dream of ... and even get treated with genetically modified drugs as you smooth on the collagen for the age lines on your face, but at what cost; if we are truly not willing to "walk the walk" when it comes to finding a way to balance our way of to allow for sustained and humane development that provides for all of those nice to haves like clean air and water and enough disposable income to travel to Ethiopia or Sri Lanka or anywhere to have those sorts of conversations.

bluespeak May 1, 2007 - 11:02pm

... a high quality of life while drastically reducing the environmental foot-print.

E.g.zero energy houses are all the rage in Germany.

Even without widespread adoption of this technology Germany's per capita energy consumption is less than half than that of the US - this is all the more notable when taking into account that Germany's economy is still much more based on manufacturing.

That is why Europe is just as bloated as the US in your linked maps although it hosts a much larger population.

The key is to popularize life-style and policy changes that are a net energy gain. For instance home office use and tele-commuting. One of my new pet peeves with Canada - the country I recently moved to - is a nonsensical tax regulation that keeps companies from adopting home office policies. If an employee has a home office that they can claim deductions on than the company can not claim any deductions on additional office space and equipment that they provide for the employee. It is either or. This cements the status-quo. For a country that struggles to meet Kyoto and has terrible traffic problems in many urban areas such silly constrains are just infuriating.

This is but one little example – I think a thorough audit could uncover many ways to regulate and steer citizens towards a lifestyle that is more rewarding while at the same time being more energy efficient. It just requires some tedious and not very glamorous governing - we certainly can do better then just the unimaginative outlawing of incandescent light-bulbs.

quax May 1, 2007 - 11:32pm

...is how many human beings can this earth sustainably support? We're strip-mining the oceans, sucking up every drop of available fresh water, our cities are bulging at the seams and by and large, we're well on our way to denuding the globe.

The comforting thought is that Mother Nature usually intervenes in situations of overpopulation. The not-so-comforting thought is that such intervention is usually drastic in nature.

ZPG, where are you?

Petronius May 1, 2007 - 11:42pm

... quality of live to the poor. There is a strong correlation between standard of live and birth rate.

quax May 2, 2007 - 12:52am

HA! I joined ZPG in 1968. Had my tubes tied after two kids. Nobody would listen back then. Some people are becoming more aware of this problem...but I believe it is too late. Yes, nature will intervene. It remains to be seen exactly how.

jtruett May 2, 2007 - 10:54am

...about 500 million could live the bloated, wasteful lives we in the US (on average) do without appreciable effect. That's roughly world population during the Middle Ages.

I'm not even sure about that, though. It may be accurate as far as greenhouse gases go, but the truly nasty nature of petroleum based chemistry (wastes that screw up hormonal balances in fish, crap that never decomposes...) would eventually screw up the planet.

Malthus may yet win the war, despite losing all the battles to Technology.

Gordon May 2, 2007 - 11:34am

but technology is largely what got us here. Too many people think technology is a panacea for our environmental ills, but technology and the wastes it spins off are the cause of our ills.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 11:55am

The external costs of our current crop of technology is not priced into the consumption. That is why regulation has to fill this gap but that has not happened.

Technologies like zero energy houses and automatic sorting for recyclables are available but can not compete on price.

Another lamentable fact is that research in nuclear fission reactors has hardly impacted the debate. There are two reactors designs that are inherently safe i.e. can not blow up pebble bed reactors and spallation reactors. The latter use accelerators to create an artificial external neutron beam i.e. they forgo chain reaction completely. They also have the advantage of allowing to treated nuclear waste via induced nuclear reaction. Both designs can also use Thorium and therefore will not run out of fuel anytime soon even without tapping into plutonium enrichment.

I used to be opposed to nuclear fission technology mostly because of the waste disposal issue. The prospect of waste treatment via induced nuclear reaction and the pressing issue of global warming made me change my mind.

I figure this is another uncomfortable discussion that has to happen within the current generation of environmentalists. Global warming puts nuclear energy squarely on the table. I don’t think we can afford to forego it. Especially since this way we could actually produce and excess of energy to start depleting the atmosphere of CO2. Again the technology for this is available.

At any rate don’t blame the engineers. They have no control over the adoption of their technology. Blame our greed rewarding society and its supporters.

quax May 2, 2007 - 3:02pm

Global warming doesn't put nuclear energy squarely on the table because the the things that the third world wants, with regard to energy, are transportation and urbanization. Those things are driven by fossil fuels, not by electric generation. You can't wish nuclear supply into a fossil demand scenario simply because it's all energy.

Perhaps if you can transform the third world by making them all knowledge workers who stay and home and answer customer service calls, and forget manufacturing and agriculture, then a nuclear future makes sense. But that ain't gonna happen either.

Cobb May 2, 2007 - 4:53pm

Nuclear power is what makes a hydrogen economy work.

Ian Welsh May 2, 2007 - 5:01pm

driven by electricity. Look at France? They made a huge investment in nuclear many years ago with trains and subways and light rail. Now it has paid off. The part of urbanization that cannot be handled by nuclear energy is internal combustion engined cars.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 6:05pm

... developing the 3rd world are two different issues. Just as many developing nations skipped the traditional Telco development and immediately jumped to cell phones they may as well opt for a decentralized solar centric power infrastructure. Especially for countries close to the equator this is a viable option to bring the amities of electricity to remote areas. I think the later is key to make it young people less prone to migrate to the big cities.

Nuclear energy is an option for developed nations to decrease the dependence on fossil fuel. Modern mass transportation as long as it happened on the rail is almost always electrically powered (maglev as well as conventional high speed trains). And as Ian was pointing out going nuclear is also an option to enter a CO2 neutral hydrogen economy.

quax May 2, 2007 - 7:28pm

I'm enjoying learning more about this. So, keep telling me more.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 11:10pm

One of these days if I win more time in a lottery I would like to blog some more about this. As it is I am writing these comments in the few breaks that I have in between putting in a new kitchen and helping with our 2nd baby who is but 4 days old.

It is easy to become very frustrated when considering the monumental problems that humanity has to face. On the other hand it is almost impossible to a single human mind to ascertain the mountain of scientific and technological knowledge that our species managed to accumulate.

Through my scientific background I may be a little bit ahead of the curve but not all that much. If progressive politics could tap more creatively into what is already out there the world could truly be transformed into a much better place.

It'll make me very happy if I managed to convey that this is not misplaced hope but well grounded in facts.

quax May 2, 2007 - 11:41pm

As you can see from this thread it's a topic lots of your fellow Agonistas are interested in, me included. No pressure, but still, an idea.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 11:50pm

Chief Scientist of BP. Best lesson on energy ever.

Cobb May 2, 2007 - 11:41pm

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 6:03pm

Sean writes “technology and the wastes it spins off are the cause of our ills.”

If that were true, then Ethiopia and its relative technological backwardness would be paradise. It’s not. Technology is nothing more or less than human knowledge applied to nature. Human knowledge can be applied for good purposes, or for evil purposes; it can be applied with forethought, or thoughtlessly.

If you really think technology is our problem, try to imagine if tomorrow all the products of our industrial civilization disappeared. No steel. No sawn and dimensioned lumber. No pasteurization. No refrigeration of food. No laser surgery, or surgical instruments made of advanced tool steels. No clean drinking water. No sewage treatment plants. No vaccines, medicines, or pain relievers. No computers. No internet. I suggest to you that the world would be a very bleak place indeed, and furthermore, within a couple months, the world population would be down to a few tens of millions of very miserable, very hungry, very violent wretches of human beings.

Tony Wikrent May 2, 2007 - 9:52pm

No lumber? Means biugger forests and less disastrous forest fires. No laser surgery? No chemical wastes from the manafacturing process that makes the components.

I'm not saying technology is bad. What I am saying is that misplaced hope in some technological pancea is not the answer.

What I should have said is technology is "a" cause, not THE cause of our ills.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 11:14pm

I hope you continue.

Bucksouth May 2, 2007 - 12:10am

To make matters worse, our current tax laws ENCOURAGE people to have more children and reward them for this behavior. It is the exact opposite of what is logical. People who have chosen to limit the size of their families or to even have no children should be given tax breaks, not people who have small armies of kids but lack the emotional maturity or the resources to raise them. Our courtrooms are filled with the children that result from this insanity.

I also believe that resentment about the refusal to limit their families size is at the root of much of the opposition to immigration. It is one of the many things people will say in private but not in public.

CenTexDem May 2, 2007 - 3:16am

Hi CenTexDem and welcome to the Agonist. How do our tax laws encourage people to have more children?

To make matters worse, our current tax laws ENCOURAGE people to have more children and reward them for this behavior.

Tina May 2, 2007 - 3:39am

to not have kids in the first place. Hence the low population growth in developed economies.

Bolo May 2, 2007 - 11:30am

Russia is fanatical because there are no babies. No babies means no young voters, means no change, means authoritarianism. There are no two ways around that fundamental trade off. Centralization of power works best with small, unchanging populations.

Cobb May 2, 2007 - 4:55pm

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Sean Paul Kelley May 2, 2007 - 6:06pm

Frankly, I would rather subsistence farm than work at Wal-Mart.

Douglas Watts May 2, 2007 - 3:22am



Regime Change begins at home.

Rick May 2, 2007 - 5:55am

I concur. I
I also don't want the "American lifestyle". It's tedious, boring, unhealthy and a grand waste of time. If only I could show the world, so they'd stop wanting it. Too bad greed rules and turns a deaf ear.

babeltek May 2, 2007 - 2:56pm

Just to add some oddball perspective ... I think lots of folks in the U.S. would like to give up a 2 hour one way commute to work every day ... meaning that there are all kinds of aspects about the U.S. lifestyle that nobody in the U.S. finds particularly worth keeping. Does anyone really find strip mall fast food joints valuable ? I don't think so. We just tolerate them because they are there. Nobody really wants them, they just sort of show up and don't go away.

Also, regarding Ethiopian agrarian communities. Agrarian communities worldwide tend to have more in common with each other than they do with urban communities in the same country.

Douglas Watts May 2, 2007 - 3:39am

As soon as you change a significant enough percentage of the work so that it can be done remotely, you enable outsourcing and offshoring. The trade off is face to face human centric work vs the kind of work that Dr. Phil does, or Rush Limbaugh, or Netflix, or 1-800 Whomever.

That doesn't change the fact that most of our transportation energy goes into rail and trucks. You like Thai food? You like orange juice for breakfast? You can't simply re-arrange the global supply chain. The laws and the roads and the rail are already sunk costs.

By the way, there once was a great experiment in Silicon Valley to change the way people consumed groceries that was based on a similar idea to yours. Don't use N cars driven by individuals on a bunch of wasteful trips to convenience stores and stripmalls, make the produce and goods come to you. It was called WebVan. Remember? There's billions spent that prove the idea didn't work. You can try again, but whose money are your going to risk? Find a fool, and I'll short the stock.

Cobb May 2, 2007 - 5:04pm

Does anyone really find strip mall fast food joints valuable ? I don't think so. We just tolerate them because they are there.

We have been conditioned to put sticker price above all else. If you saw a gallon of milk from a local farm on a shelf, and it cost $4, if you had no comparative knowledge of milk prices, you'd probably have no problem buying it.

But the grocery store places a $2.50 gallon of milk right next to it, from mega-farm cows injected with growth hormones. Both gallons of milk look the same, probably taste the same. Which gallon of milk will 98% of the population purchase? Even though buying the mega-farm milk makes the local dairy farmer that much more likely to sell his farm to real-estate developers, and even though once all local farmland is consumed, we're all screwed if the price of gas makes that mega-farm gallon of milk cost $10.

Same goes for strip malls and fast food stores. They offer lower prices, convenience, predictability, etc. I even find myself gravitating more toward chain family restaurants because they offer more (in terms of a dining experience) than locally-owned family restaurants. But the money leaves the local economy, and probably doesn't come back. All people who depend on that local economy but dine in those chains are shafting themselves, they just don't know it.

NoPolitician May 3, 2007 - 12:08pm

What "us"? The 60 million Americans who already live on less than $7 a day perhaps?

Half of the human race - three billion people - would simply like to live on slightly more than the less-than-$3-a-day they currently do, have sufficient calories to feed their kids and maybe not live in a war zone.

I think we can oblige them pretty easily. We've already figured out how; we just won't do it.

Escher Sketch May 2, 2007 - 4:11am

You're hitting on the same rub I felt. In the U.S. (or in the 'west') there is no homogenous "us" in the first place, on a a socio-economic plane. Witness post levee failure New Orleans or take your pick of any dirt-poor, jobless rural enclave (plenty here in State 'o Maine).

Douglas Watts May 2, 2007 - 11:24pm

The relative poverty of Americans should not be a concern of globalists. Rather, one should assess the skills and classes of groups. How can you explain, that a largely illiterate and poor muslim world is reproducing at more than double the rate of literate Europeans?

Check out Gapminder with that in mind. People *do* fall in love and have babies at very low income levels. But they are self-suffient in ways we simply are not. If you simply migrated tens of millions of them here, they'd be considered a blight.

My point is that if everybody knows the Third World can't pay off their debt, why do we keep trying to convert them into Second World countries? Isn't that a contradiction of Left Liberal principles that value indigenous, pre-industrial people? Your Gods Must be Crazy.

Cobb May 3, 2007 - 12:12am

We are all "indigenous" people anyways, with varying degrees of pre and post industrial lifestyles. I don't drive, for example and have no TV. big whoop. But i have a computer.

Douglas Watts May 3, 2007 - 12:55am

Here is Henry Carey, leading economist of what used to be known as the American System of Political Economy, writing in 1851 about British “free trade” economics:

We thus have here, first, a system that is unsound and unnatural, and second, a theory invented for the purpose of accounting for the poverty and wretchedness which are its necessary results. The miseries of Ireland are charged to over-population, although millions of acres of the richest soils of the kingdom are waiting drainage to take their place among the most productive in the world, and although the Irish are compelled to waste more labour than would pay, many times over, for all the cloth and iron they consume. The wretchedness of Scotland is charged to over-population when a large portion of the land is so tied up by entails as to forbid improvement, and almost forbid cultivation. The difficulty of obtaining food in England is ascribed to over-population, when throughout the kingdom a large portion of the land is occupied as pleasure grounds, by men whose fortunes are due to the system which has ruined Ireland and India. Over-population is the ready excuse for all the evils of a vicious system, and so will it continue to be until that system shall see its end...

(Pages 64-65 of The Harmony of Interests) http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1851-1875/carey/harmxx.htm

Tony Wikrent May 2, 2007 - 7:26am

The so-called American lifestyle, as defined on teevee, is that of an elite that is becoming more and more exclusive everyday. Maybe the Republicans are the ultimate environmentalists.
Impoverish the American middle and working class and then they can't afford all the energy consuming treats of the American lifestyle. Trickle down as a green policy. Who'd a thunk it?
At some point above $5.00 per gallon gasoline, 30 years of conservative cheap labor policy will collide with most current transportation policy. Maybe we can loosen zoning laws and allow shanty towns to arise near workplaces to fix it.
We will probably meet much of the 2nd and 3rd world somewhere at the lower end of the middle if worse things don't happen. People trying to get by on $7.00 per hour are already there.
Douglas Watts, above,is very close to the truth:
"Frankly, I would rather subsistence farm than work at Wal-Mart."
The subsistence farm will kill you rather quickly if things don't work out, whereas Slave-Mart will do it slowly with a good amount of physical and psychic suffering.

JT May 2, 2007 - 8:55am

Than Wal-Mart. Just a personal thing, tho. I'd rather pull weeds over either. That's what I grew up doing working for my dad.

Douglas Watts May 3, 2007 - 1:02am

All of the issues we ought to be talking about - issues about sustainability, fair allocation of resources, and so on, flow from your question. Nor should we reflexively posit that the Western solution is the best. It has two problems:
1) it is not sustainable. Not in the form we live today. It derives from and it requires ever-expaning frontier. We've run out of that.
2) Reduced to its essence it produces a very uneasy and often unsatisfying and disconnected social existence. Many other cultures foster closer connectedness.

It is easy to see the benefits but it is difficult to recon the costs. The benefits derive from a particular kind of cooperative, educated, hard-working culture thriving in an underpopulated, resource-rich frontier. Once any of those assumptions breaks down, civilization collapses or unravels.

I lived for some years in Africa as a child. I have an appreciation of the material poverty that exists. Yet for as desirable as all of the trappngs of civilization are, I remain to be convinced that Africans led lives that were much less happy than those of many Americans. We pay more than we realize to live this life. (Think about the fact that first generation immigrants are always much happier to live here than their progeny. What happens?) And I expect that we will have to learn to make do with less. And soon.

Some other useful questions will be "How much less.?" "How to allocate fairly?" and "Can we do it without falling into chaos?" "How do we build sustainable techologies that allow us to preserve the best of what we have in the face of looming shortages?" "How do we move toward sustainable population levels?" "How do we build societies that simultaneously foster close and satisfying social ties and engender tolerance?"

Technology alone is not enough. Nor is laissez-affaire capitalism. We need to objectively understand our strengths and weaknesses, and we need to listen to each other. Be diligent, and be patient.

mtspace May 2, 2007 - 11:45am

The 1972 Club of Rome book, Limits to Growth, modeling the consequences of a rapidly growing world population and finite resource supplies, has been shown to be scientifically inaccurate, to put it mildly. Basically, the Limits to Growth model fails to account for the development of new technologies. New technologies which allow for more efficient use of resources, the viable extraction of resources that were not economically viable before; and the substitution of new resources for old ones.

For example, we have the technology in hand to build vehicles powered by internal combustion engines that get 100 miles to the gallon. This means that the full deployment of this technology increases the expected life of petroleum reserves four to five times. I submit that the problem is the lack of purchasing power to get more expensive, lead technologies into use faster. There is also the political problem of bad decisions: as Stirling Newberry pointed out about two years ago, the amount of money wasted on waging war in Iraq in less than one year would have more than covered the cost of increasing U.S. CAFE standards.

The Club of Rome model calculated the carrying capacity of the planet at 7.7 billion people – which we will soon reach. Westing in 1981 calculated carrying capacity at 3.9 billion people, based on total land area, cultivated land area, forest land area, cereals (grain) and wood assuming technology and politics of 1975. These low estimates are invalid, having been surpassed by reality without the massive social disaster these and similar studies predicted. On the other hand, Helig in 1993 calculated carrying capacity at 14.0 billion people, based on biophysical capacity, and accounting for increased technology.
http://www.ilea.org/leaf/richard2002.html

Then, there is Rosenfeld's Law:

From 1845 to the present, the amount of energy required to produce the same amount of gross national product has steadily decreased at the rate of about 1 percent per year. This is not quite as spectacular as Moore's Law of integrated circuits, but it has been tested over a longer period of time. One percent per year yields a factor of 2.7 when compounded over 100 years. It took 56 BTUs (59,000 joules) of energy consumption to produce one (1992) dollar of GDP in 1845. By 1998, the same dollar required only 12.5 BTUs (13,200 joules)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenfeld's_Law

In the June 14, 2002 MIT Technology Review, 1982 MacArthur Fellow, and UC-Berkeley Physics Department professor Richard A. Muller noted

The United Nations now estimates that the population of the world will peak, sometime in this century, at about ten billion. That sounds bad—it is much higher than the current level—but it is a peak. After that, the population will decrease slowly. The predictions are now believed to be quite robust, as a paper in Nature last August documented (Vol. 412, pp 543-545, 2001). Malthus’s population bomb is fizzling. The year 2026 will pass without a singularity.

What is happening? Where was Malthus wrong? At a United Nations conference last March, demographers discussed many possible explanations. The most appealing one was that the declining growth is a consequence of the expanding worldwide rights of women. Others attribute it to poverty reduction. Wealthy people have fewer children, for reasons we don’t fully understand. Western TV is also cited: people see happy families with small numbers of children. I get the sense that scientists are groping, putting forth plausible explanations for an observed fact that they didn’t predict. Fertility is declining far faster than expected in many regions, even in nations with no government family planning efforts (e.g., Brazil).

The happy news comes when we combine limited population with conservation growth. The conservation bomb wins. Rosenfeld points out that at 2 percent growth—the 2 percent solution—conservation outruns population by a large factor. Two percent compounded over 100 years reduces energy use by a factor of 7.2. By 2100, with a world population of 10 billion people, everyone can be living at the current European standard of living and yet expending half the energy we are using today.

In fact, energy through-put in the earth’s eco-system is basically infinite, the only limiting factors being 1) the output of the Sun and a2) tmosphere absorption and diffusion, and 3) our level of technology employed in capturing and utilizing the Sun’s energy. The first two we can do nothing about; the third factor we can do a great deal about. L. Merrick Lockwood, for example, developed a 5-HP Stirling Cycle engine in Bangladesh that burns rice husks, the detritus of raising and processing a basic food staple in Asia.
http://www.stirlingengine.com/ecommerce/product.tcl?product_id=84

Lockwood’s major problem was a lack of financing. That is, in fact, the major problem for technology-driven solutions to the problems of population growth and resource use – unless you are willing to forcibly prevent people from reproducing. Everybody is quick to write and say that people need to use less, and have less babies, but nobody is willing to face the ugliness that solution entails – true tyranny and the end of many basic human freedoms. As Prof. Muller went on to note, a technology-driven solution is much better:

The solution may lie in making the developing world wealthy. What a delightful vision! Economics—the glorious science. Wealth reduces population growth; conservation wins; the environment is cleaner; the world is happier.

Now, it so happens that the world is awash in financing. According to the latest Quarterly Report from the Bank for International Settlements, dated March 2007 (see page 24):
http://www.bis.org/publ/qtrpdf/r_qt0703b.pdf

Trading on the international derivatives exchanges slowed in the fourth quarter of 2006. Combined turnover of interest rate, currency and stock index derivatives fell by 7% to $431 trillion between October and December 2006.

So, derivatives trading – mostly futures contracts on interest rates, foreign currencies, Treasury bonds, etc -- is now $1,200 trillion in a year. That’s $1.2 quadrillion a year.

By comparison, U.S. GDP last year $12.456 trillion.
( Table B-1 of the 2007 Economic Report of the President,
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/eop/tables07.html

The entire U.S. economy of goods and services produced is traded once every two days. Assume speculators are able to capture as profit one fifth of one percent of that $1,200 trillion a year in derivatives turnover, and that is $2.4 trillion a year.

What if that $2.4 trillion a year were instead devoted to developing new technologies such as Lockwood’s 5-HP Stirling Cycle engine?

Yet when I half jokingly wrote a week or so ago that an “accidental” cruise missile attack on Zurich or the Cayman Islands would help force the financiers and bankers to accept a new regime of finance aimed at actual national development, rather than speculation, a few people here had the temerity to denounce the idea as tyrannical.

So we have a choice of who to impose tyranny on: most of the world’s population of 7 billion or so souls, or a few tens of thousands of financiers and bankers and “free market” ideologues.

So again I proffer the quote from Henry Carey in 1851:

Over-population is the ready excuse for all the evils of a vicious system, and so will it continue to be until that system shall see its end...

Tony Wikrent May 2, 2007 - 1:02pm

Club for Growth got it wrong, but what is true is that any particular technological system does have a carrying capacity. It's just that that capacity keeps changing.

I don't think most derivatives trading is anything but a Ponzi scheme by the way, and cashing out even 2.4 trillion would cause a huge bout of inflation.

Ian Welsh May 2, 2007 - 3:59pm

Ian, it is a simple question of exercising national sovereignty over currencies and financial markets. This need not be complicated. In Number 15 of The Federalist Papers, our first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, firmly set the standard by asking simply and pointedly, “Is private credit the friend and patron of industry?” The boogey man of inflation ought not deter us from doing what is right and just.

Will cashing out even 2.4 trillion would cause a huge bout of inflation? Under the present (mis)leadership of American elites, it probably would. But I suggest that if circumstances were to change so much that the derivatives trade could be subjected to sovereign control of national governments, the present political, business, and financial elites will have been swept into the dustbin of history, idiots all. That mighty flood of dirty and hot money that now rushes about the globe will have been brought to heel, with the understanding that it must be made to do real work that will benefit real people. Building new schools, new hospitals, new water treatment facilities, not just to replace aged ones here at home, but to replace the groaning misery of nothingness where such things do not now exist, in developing countries all over the world. The classic definition of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. Please, just spend a few days trying to figure out the bill of materials required to give every single human being on the planet access to clean drinking water. How much pipe is needed? How many valves? How much steel? How much concrete?

$2.4 trillion won’t be nearly enough to buy all that is needed.

Tony Wikrent May 2, 2007 - 10:17pm

has only been a problem in technologically adept societies. There is no record or tradition of unclean drinking water in agrarian cultures. Urbanization creates sanitary problems due to population density. In modern times, most sanitary problems are due to the willful and deliberate decision of corrupt governments and businesses to pollute public water supplies. Show me any public sanitary problem with drinking water and I will show you the corrupt government or the uncaring business/polluter.

Douglas Watts May 2, 2007 - 11:46pm

Kids are a pain in the ass. You can love one child just as much as ten, so why have ten? If you have 100 acres of land to work for survival - you might need ten. Or if the mortality rates in your area are high enough that having ten kids means three or four will eventually survive to maturity.

So in the developed nations with low mortality rates, why load yourself down with lots of kids? You have less money to give each for education and personal enrichment as you have more - so people stop at one or two.

zot23 May 2, 2007 - 2:57pm

Thank you T Wikrent for making some obvious points re overpopulation being used as an excuse to forget how that bloated wealth was created in the first place. I get too tired of people dragging out Malthus. The real capital of many of these less wealth endowed countries is their human population. How do we measure this wealth? GDP per capita? In all that bloated N America there were humans, those whose bloated bodies weren't floating in the iridescent wake of Katrina, trapped and blamed for being too poor to get out while help offered from the less wealth endowed countries went to waste. Technology per se does not create these problems but how we finance its development and application. We do have the potential to get out of this but do we have the commitment and the will to develop an appropriate systemic infrastructure to devise a solution is the real issue. Talking about non-white peoples having too many babies is simply a KKK obfuscation.

sona May 2, 2007 - 3:05pm

While all the discussion is good, the issues are symptoms of our fundamental natures, both individual and collective, that mandate our exhibition of a will to power. Technology, population explosions, excess wealth and economic power are all manifestations of that drive to dominate. And the conversation above is an inevitable outgrowth of the manifestation of that drive in its final self destructive stage.

There is no solution, man will always seek the parabolic growth curve until he creates the conditions that kill the civilization.

Takachi99 May 2, 2007 - 9:57pm

History abounds with communities and peoples that maintained stability over very long periods of time.

Douglas Watts May 3, 2007 - 1:04am

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