stumble roughly through a more or less accurate message in private meetings with Assad, albeit smiling too much and couching it in such terms that the bits about not further destabilizing Lebanon, dropping support for Hezbollah, etc. were somewhere between "unintelligible" and "easily ignored".

I'm seriously taken aback. Have you ever watched Pelosi speak? "Stumble roughly through" something? '"unintelligible" and "easily ignored"'?

You sound like you're speaking of Bush's communication skills, not Pelosi's. Let's have a few links to Pelosi communicating that poorly then to see what that facet of your analytical prowess looks like supported with facts - I'm all ears, get your links on the table.

I am not criticizing Pelosi's ability to be articulate when she wants to. I'm questioning (a) her eagerness to strongly convey the conditions Olmert described given the way she'd framed the visit domestically and (b) her appreciation and understanding of the rhetorical and political culture she was attempting to engage.

The visit may not have been the insane idea it turned out to be if it had been handled by a more saavy politician. She seems to have utterly failed to consider how her visit would look in the Arab press and, consequently, the regional political fallout(that's the kind interpretation -- in the alternative, she inconscionably wanted it to come off as it did). If she had left with Assad slightly pissed off and embarassed (publicly) that might have represented progress. Instead, she gave him political support to stay his course.

-t

Pelosi's handling of the Saudis was deft. In fact it showed a finesse that I haven't seen from an American politician vis a vis the ME in a while. All the more impressive for a woman bearding that lion in its den.

The thought that Pelosi did a great job there and a lousy one in Syria seems improbable to me. So I have to either speculate that that happened - or it didn't happen and the political interests that want to see her publicly sandbagged, the same interests that have been trying to drive the shiv in since the trip was announced, are merely desperately attempting to portray her Syrian visit in the most unsympathetic light possible to counteract the fact that she did so well in Saudi Arabia - including the possibility that she was set up and backstabbed with a bogus message.

If she had left with Assad slightly pissed off and embarassed (publicly) that might have represented progress.

Yes, that's very much of a piece with existing policy. Arab men love being humiliated by Western women and I'm sure that would soothe things down nicely. It's really a pity she didn't wipe her arse on his tea towels, I'm sure that's the ticket to finding a way through this.

including the possibility that she was set up and backstabbed with a bogus message

Oh, please. Really? So, why is nobody in her entourage making that claim? The claims made are:

Olmert: we told her the position we've long held

Pelosi entourage: she told Assad what Olmert said

Pelosi to the press: I told them Israel was ready for peace talks.

Olmert and the entourage agree. It was Pelosi's message to the press that was bogus (and prompted Olmert's press-release correction).

-t

The visit may not have been the insane idea it turned out to be Not to put too fine a point on it, but what the hell are you talking about? Insane? The visit was a good idea!

she gave him political support No, she really didn't give him political support. She had a diplomatic talk with Assad, that's all. Why are people making such an amazing fuss over Pelosi doing exactly what needed to be done? I guess you could argue that Pelosi should have sent someone from the State Department, but you should remember how completely loco bananas this administration is. Pelosi may not have been able to trust them.

Seriously, what is is about normal diplomacy that people don't get anymore? The fact that she talked with Assad only shows that the US is willing to talk now, not that Pelosi somehow supports Assad's regime. Being able to talk is not a sign of weakness, it's just normal relations.

Our virtues are usually only vices in disguise.

She very much gave Assad political support on the Arab streets. What was reported in the Arab press? That USian resistance to him is fracturing. That, at least in imagery, he gets at least if not more respect than Israel. That the next day those treacherous Jews went back on their word. That while Nancy was making nice and all, she deserves criticism for not going far enough in making nice.

This wasn't quiet back-room diplomacy -- that happens all the time, official contacts or no. This was an exchange of photo-ops that had very different meanings in the US and on the Arab streets. There's nothing "normal" about that kind of relation.

-t

What the heck are you talking about? There's everything normal about heads of state, even of states that have poor relations, going to see each other and having photos taken. That is what it looks like when states are trying to repair relations and avert wars. Which, as I understand it, is what Pelosi is trying to do.

Our virtues are usually only vices in disguise.

Assad's domestic credibility is backed by Assad's domestic security apparatus. First, last and always. Public popularity is pretty secondary so long as it doesn't crash on the downside. As to how he's viewed by Arab elites, given his close alignment with Iran and the larger stuff going on, he's got bigger problems that aren't going to begin to be addressed by this.

As to normalization of relations, frankly that's just a real good idea. Josh's notion that there's strategic concern that Syria might do something stupid due to Lebanon derived misperceptions of IDF deterrance is something that I've seen pop up here and there in Israel (van Crevald, among others).

"Political Islam is a dream or a nightmare, but not a sociological reality." - Olivier Roy, Globalized Islam: The Search for a New Ummah

here - War Clouds Gather Over the Golan
Martin Van Creveld | Fri. Mar 09, 2007

Congressmen visiting furren countries:

- 11 to Syria so far (5 Republicans)

- Hastert went to Colombia and outright told them to negotiate directly with him, not the pinko in the WH

- Gingrich went to Israel and said Jerusalem must be the capital (not admin policy)

- Gingrich went to China and threatened them with force if they looked at Taiwan wrong (not admin policy).

Pelosi:

- Pelosi in cat fight with Harmon! Is this the end of Pelosi? (No)

- Pelosi backs (anit-war looney, ABSCAM sucking) Murtha over Stoyer! Is this the end of Pelosi? (No)

- (I'm missing at least one here)

- Pelosi gives wrong message to Assad! (Yeah right, with embassy people in attendance).

So now we have: Assad's popularity rockets to all time high after posing with the woman who won the Congressional beauty contest 5 times and whose repeated face-lifts have left her face in a permanent rictus that approximates a smile!

Note that all of Pelosi's "mis-steps" were aggressively pursued by the press, and the same press controls what airtime she gets to defend herself. Yet she the most effective Speaker that we have had in a long, long time. Watch, and learn; she's a real politician, not an amatuer.

refuse to talk to your enemies and just rub shoulders with your friends? How far does that get you in settling differences? How would the United States even know what the dispute is about?

...Are you talking to me? I fully support Pelosi. The only negatives in there are sarcastic.

Most of this thread has been speculation about what her trip means in the Arab world. I don't know, I'm not an arab. I absolutely think most arabs are a shitload smarter than we non-arabs give them credit for, and are probably pretty realistic about the posturing of political figures (and this goes for all of those we're habitually paternalistic towards*). And I absolutely know that most of us are unbelievable dumb about how we're led around by the nose.

A succinct example: Reagan declared Nicaragua a "national security threat" (bought hook line and sinker in this country). When he went to Mexico and tried to get the President to join in his declaration, the President said "No, if I did that, 40 million Mexicans would die laughing."

So the drumming up of anti-Pelosi hysteria is (at least for me), the important part of the story. When the Wash Post and CNN (not worried about the Murdoch empire) beat up on Pelosi this hard (like they successfully beat up on Gore), you know something's up. (While you're watching our Presidential race, this is actually the most important thing to watch for - whom they beat up on = who scares them = who might actually be able to change things.)

(*) With the possible exception of those cute little furry critters to our north**

(**) Sorry, just can't help it. Probably stems from learning to say I'm "from the United States" instead of "an American" back in the 70s, and now you guys call us "Americans". Sheesh.

some of your sarcasm went over my head, but I am from the province of Ontario where the Loon is our provincial bird and the Loonie is also our currency. So you'll have to excuse the odd crazy mistake that I make--I'll work like a beaver to correct future misconceptions. L0L

Jeez, what other country in the world has a rodent as being reflective of its population?

I trust and respect Pelosi's leadership. Any time the States tire of her, could we borrow her to sit in our Parliament?

...the "Pelosi in 07" T-shirts? I think we'll keep her busy.

Here in Maine we have a "Save the Black Fly" bumper sticker. But the prize goes to UC Santa Cruz for their banana slug mascot.

(OT: miss Zedano Chara much?)