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in America should be free. It's a stupid and counterproductive economic policy to have students in so much debt right after the graduate.
"With the average new text costing more than $100, the typical student can expect to spend more than $900 a year on books."
I remember spending about $650 in just one semester a few years ago... sigh.
And regarding selling books back... its almost worthless. A $100 book will be taken back for maybe $15, and most of the expensive books are the ones you want to keep for later reference or as a professional. Selling them back just means you'll probably end up buying an even more expensive version later when you need it again. The crappy things that you'd want to return, like xeroxed binders, are usually really cheap and cannot be returned in any case.
"Publishers say prices are rising because professors demand the latest editions and the extras."
I say bull. 5 years of college and we never used any of the "extras" in my math or science books. I got the impression from my profs that latest editions were bought because they were the only thing being sold. None of them were delighted to be using the newest and best editions.
As a sidenote regarding higher education being free: What would happen if this were implemented? I would love to see it happen in theory, but what are the actual ramifications?
The whole ball of educational wax, tuition, books, and housing are outstripping inflation. The publishing educational industrial complex akin to the military industrial complex runs some very eerie parallel consolidation. Just like the military industrial complex is down to two super prime contractors Boeing, and Lockheed, with Halliburton the super service supplier rip-off prime. I am unsure of who the prime publishers in the academic world have consolidated into, however in the few courses that I guest lecture, the availability of used books is key in the text selection process. As soon as the class registration list is sent to me, out goes an e-mail to the students specifying text books needed and where to purchase them, either through the internet used or local independent book shops selling used text books. This takes place 45 days before the new semester begins, giving a motivated student time to find the best deals or use the local Internet book exchange forums for texts. The very cutting edge stuff is in the peer-reviewed publications that are available on line through the library.
As for the free College education, yes and yes. There is a chronic shortage of medical folks; the U.S. has to import thousands of Pilipino nurses. The shortage of engineers, credentialed teachers, and many other professions is an aspect of national economic defense that has to be addressed.
I hold out little hope, the oil cartels shot across the economic and strategic bow of the U.S. 32 years ago. Gosh, 32 years to prepare for energy security independence.
Sometimes I wonder, other times I know.
Takes a bucket of blood for the flow of oil
"Free" to whom? Certainly not to middle-class taxpayers. Look, under Federal and many State regimes the last twenty-five years, we are underwriting "Offense" and the Medicare/Medicaid beast (and lately, "Homeland Security") to the exclusion of a great many urgent needs: education, alternative energy, high-speed and commuter rail. You've seen "Why We Fight"? Do you imagine for a moment that we will ever pry those trillions of dollars out of the sweaty palms of the Offense industry? Out of what turnip shall we squeeze the tax revenue to fund primary and secondary education, let alone higher education?
I would love to see a plan where the Federal government would work with the States to make a State University undergrad degree free to their residents. I would hate to try take it further than that.
- Rick "Free your mind, and your ass will follow" - George Clinton
for many years, and an excellent education was had by all.It also didn't bankrupt the city. It was considered an -entitlement if you were good enough to get in, not a luxury, and produced some of the best scholars and scientists of the 20th century. Most private and public museums were free, which encouraged kids to go by themselves.
Many people who think the notion is outrageous haven't realized what used to be the case.
NO -Harvard was never free:-)
"at some point I'm hopeful I'll figure out something to put here"
If free higher education became avalable, then the NYC model for admitance would have to apply.
War for Energy....Such a Shame
the old NYC model
. Agreed.
Today's students have laptops or have access to computers. Why wouldn't books be scanned and put online?
And/or let advertisers drive down the cost of books by allowing them to insert ads in textbooks?
Peter C: What did you mean by, "where to buy them?" Aren't there bookstores in all Universities and Colleges where 'all' textbooks are located? I never had to go outside a College of University campus to locate books I needed. And there were used books at 50% of the cost of new. Or there were ads at the College/University put there by students who had books for sale. Usually private students were better deals both for the buyer and the seller. Professors filled out requisitions supplied by the bookstores and the bookstore ordered them in enough quantities to fulfill all the demand plus a few extra for late registrations that joined the class after it started. I assume by the bookstore buying in quantity they got the very best price and sold them for not much profit. The University/College bookstores were not non-profit, but they didn't gouge students.
usually means used books would fetch higher prices. Is there a central source where they are collected such as University/College bookstores?
If textbooks are used a maximum of one semester or perhaps two, why aren't they published as soft-cover editions? A hard-bound textbook seems to be waste of money and resources.
Silly me--larger profit margin for the publishers, perhaps?
The on campus book store is run by Borders using the university name. A student would not know that Borders is running the supply of books. Yes, the Profs order the books to be stocked, however it is strange how the used ones seem to be non-existent on the shelfs, even with big sell backs by students at the end of the last semester.
I do all I can to stear the students away from the campus book store out to internet and non-chain suppliers.
War for Energy...Such a Shame
Steven Bruton
It's Barnes & Noble that has a fair lock on University bookstore sales. Borders hasn't entered that game (to my knowledge, and there are 16 years of Borders experience living under my roof). See http://www.bkstore.com/ for Barnes and Noble boasting over 500 campus bookstores in the US.
I get confused by all the big box type stores.
"Takes a bucket of blood for a barrel of oil"
There is only one bookstore on this campus and is run by Borders flying the Campus name, students think they are buying form the school. Borders sends a cut of the sales to the school. The supply of used books is very limited at the campus store, I think this is on purpose. I do all I can to point out alternate supply sources, on campus intranet bulletin boards, on line used textbook sellers, local independent book shops selling used texts, every university town has one near the campus.
If college was free, what possible incentive would there be for students to study hard?
If you put yourself $100k in debt for a law or medical degree, then you're going to have to work pretty hard to get a good job so you can pay it off. I see no problem with that, because (eventually) those jobs pay quite well. They debt is really no problem.
However, if you spend $100k to get a degree on 19th century French poetry, well, then you're pretty damn stupid.
The LAST thing I want is lots of starry eyed dreamers spending $100k of taxpayers money on college degrees that are lots of fun, but have zero value. If kids (or their parents) have to pay for those degrees out of their own pockets, that will keep the waste to a minimum.
Besides... who cares if you have a huge student loan debt? Its not like anybody can reposess your education.
Now... if you want public funding of science and engineering degrees, then I'm with you. However, look at the current anti-science administration: doesn't that make you afraid? If they were the one single source of money for higher education, they could cut all funds to non Bible-related sciences whenever they wanted.
Single point of failure. No good.
It is better to have multiple funding sources: government grants, charitable foundations, and corporations. The government can give general grants, and low-interest loans. Charities give away funds to the minority du jour. Companies fund education by funding research, which ensures good hands-on work at universities.
I think our univerity system is FAR less broken that our primary education system.
-- http://bexhuff.com Of COURSE you can trust the US Government! Just ask the Indians.
There was a time in US history when a publicly-funded 6th grade education would have you set for a productive middle-class life. When I graduated from the university, a high-school education was still adequate to be able to support a family and own a house and automobile and live comfortably on a single wage-earner salary.
Today, educational requirements have grown to make at least a baccalureate mandatory if one is to maintain the same standard of living (or perhaps slightly lower, as single-earner families are less common). Yet the public funding of education to meet the demands of our industrial society have not kept pace. In fact, much of university education isn't about "higher learning" but is more of a "trade school" type.
From a political standpoint, does it serve the political establishment to have an educated constiutency? Perhaps, as long as those constituents don't learn to think critically. If critical thinking were important, it would be taught in the earliest grades. But then there might be an open revolt when children began questioning values, religious beliefs and actions of their elected leaders. Much better to have a constitutent body that responds to emotional impulse. But I digress.
I suppose it all depends where the country is headed. If we're on our way toward becoming a nation of extreme haves and have-nots who accept whatever they get from Minitrue, then we need to keep the status quo.
Your points could be easily addressed by fixing primary school education. The problem is not that you need college to get a good job, the problem is that 50 years ago the average 8th grader knew more than the average college sophmore does today.
I'm not a fan of Joh Stossel, but this expose on how bad our public schools are was very good:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA
He's arguing that public schools are making our kids dumber. The longer they stay in school, the dumber they get (relative to students in other countries). Our 4th graders are cream of the crop... our 8th graders are below average... and our 12th graders are bottom of the pile.
Frankly, I have to agree with him.
Making primary school free to the public worked great for a while, but now its a wretched mess. And the greedy, incompetent public school administrators are 80% to blame. Teachers are probably 20% to blame, mainly because the union digs in their heels whenever anybody bring up the evils of accountability.
I fear what would happen if universities tried to emulate their model. At least now there's a chance that a poor student can get a good education. There are plenty of good public universities that cost very little to attend. Work part time, graduate in 5 years, your debt would be minimal.
If universities were taken over by the same hacks running our public schools, this country would get a whole lot dumber very fast.
I feel that books are like medicine. Doctors are paid to tell people what medicines to take by corporations I think Profs. are paid the same for the books they suggest! Corporations have taken over the economy at our cost.
repressive governments mix administrative clumsiness & inefficiency with authoritarian tendencies.
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