If waterboarding isn't torture...


according to the wall street journal and bushco, why then was waterboarding one of the "tortures" cited in convicting the japanese for war crimes committed during ww2?

Hat tip to Cookie Jill over at Skippy, go read the whole post.

united states v. sawada


Scott M September 25, 2006 - 1:08pm

to go directly to the story. Nice find Scott



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina September 25, 2006 - 1:27pm

how come the CIA said they were?

FOIA'd CIA Document on Brainwashing, 4/25/1960

Page 25:

Two of the most effective of these [ways to apply pressure] are creating fatigue and preventing the prisoner adequate sleep.

---snip---

Continued loss of sleep produced clouding of consciousness and a loss of alertness, both of which impair the victim's ability to sustain isolation.

Another simple and effective type of pressure is that of maintaining the temperature of the cell at a level which is either too hot or too cold for comfort.

---snip---

Still another pressure is to reduce the food ration to the point to which the prisoner experiences constant hunger.

---snip---

The effects of isolation, anxiety, fatigue, lack of sleep, uncomfortable temperatures, and chronic hunger produce disturbances of mood, attitudes, and behavior in nearly all prisoners. The living organism cannot entirely withstand such assaults.

The Communists do not look upon these assaults as "torture". Undoubtedly, they use the methods which they do in order to conform, in a typical legalistic manner, to Communist theory which demands that "no force or torture be used in extracting information from prisoners." But these methods do constitute torture and physical coercion and should never be considered otherwise.

(Hattip DKos diarist clammyc)

Escher Sketch September 25, 2006 - 2:11pm

I saw a blurb yesterday somewhere in my travels and have been going nuts tryin to find it.



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina September 25, 2006 - 2:18pm

to read the entire document, your horror is going to grow page by page.

It's all in there, step by step, stress positions, sleep deprivation, etc.

It's an old truism, but one really does become precisely what one hates.

Escher Sketch September 25, 2006 - 2:22pm

...I think the proper date for the doc's 1956, not 1960 (the various stamps and hand notations which look to indicate distribution up and down the food chain and the rather murky cover date seem to corroborate this).

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave September 25, 2006 - 4:09pm

just the CIA's coversheet. My error.

Escher Sketch September 25, 2006 - 4:14pm

it isn't the finshed version, so there must be more out there. The post I read said 60's and 70's. Still can't remember the site!



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina September 25, 2006 - 4:31pm
Escher Sketch September 25, 2006 - 5:59pm

This document is not about extracting information. It is about brainwashing.

Think on that for a few minutes. It's not a document about extracting information. It is about techniques to coerce your subject to believe something.

Makes one speculate that known bad interrogation techniques which are known good brainwashing techniques are being used intentionally because the actual goal is not really to get confessions but to brainwash prisoners into exaggerating and making up confessions so everyone can have more terrorism to be afraid of.

Escher Sketch September 25, 2006 - 2:42pm

..."brainwashing" here is an historical artifact of the period in which the document was written, more than anything substantive. The term simply didn't have the connotation in the context of these documents that it has for us (specific allusions to the Manchurian Candidate, etc).

I know a little about the history of this in the context of Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape [SERE] training (which seems to be where all of the techniques applied by US personnel were in the main derived from) and the larger context for all of this, so far as I know it, is primarily the Korean War, where US forces faced really organized coercive interrogation on a large scale for the first time. (US unconventional warfare forces had been subjected to this sort of thing during prior conflicts, but no one had seen really organized stuff on this scale previously.) There was great surprise that US service members could be maneuvered into making the public statements against their nation's interest that they manifestly did - the popular reaction was that their fundamental motivations must have been somehow changed in order for patriotic Americans to make such statements (i.e., that they were "brainwashed").

Out of all of this mess came the various SERE schools for at high risk of capture personnel. Gradually, after the summary experience of a lot of folks in enemy hands everyone's come to the consensus position that, given enough time and enough control over the mental and physical environment of detainees, anyone can be broken and made to divulge information and make statements against interest - it doesn't mean that they've changed their fundamental beliefs or allegiances (i.e., that they've been "brainwashed"); it just means that they couldn't resist that day.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave September 25, 2006 - 3:58pm

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