I’m always thrilled when someone else responds to any of the right’s dozens of daily idiotic brain disconnects on almost any subject imaginable — but particularly, in the last couple of weeks, about the murder of Trayvon Martin — so I don’t have to.
In addition to reversing the known facts about the shooting to make the argument that Trayvon — who was armed with nothing more dangerous than a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona tea — was the aggressor, rather than George Zimmerman who, armed with a concealed handgun and a Clint Eastwood complex, shot Trayvon dead after ignoring a 911 dispatcher’s instructions not to follow him, wingnuts are now pointing to every news story they can find about black-on-black gun violence.
Today’s example is Rich Lowry, who writes:
Delric Miller IV died in a hail of bullets a month ago. When someone fired 37 AK-47 rounds into his Detroit home at 4:30 a.m., he was mortally wounded while dozing on the couch. He was nine months old. No one made the multicolored teething ring he got for Christmas or his toy hammer into a national symbol of random violence.
Last year, Charinez Jefferson, 17, was shot and killed on a Chicago street. ”œShe begged the shooter not to shoot her because she was pregnant,” a pastor explained. The alleged assailant, Timothy Jones, 18, shot her in the head, chest and back after seeing her walking with a rival gang member. New York Times columnist Charles Blow did not write a column about Jefferson’s killing as a symbol of the perils of being a young black woman in America.
The indispensable Barbara O’Brien (aka the eponymous Maha at Mahablog) does the shredding. True, Lowry’s stupidity makes it an easy job, but she still does it so well:
Righties have a congenital inability to get the point. The brain damaged Rick Lowry whines that lots of black people get shot without everyone on the Left making a Big Bleeping Deal about it. …
[snip]
That was a terrible thing, yes. But you know what happened after that, Rick? The police went looking for her alleged killer. The following week, they found him and arrested him. He was charged with the murder and held without bond.That’s why Charles Blow didn’t have to write a column about it, you bleeping idiot.
Well done, Barbara. And thank you.
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2012/03/zimmerman-will-walk-.html
A Clint Eastwood complex and he didn’t go back to his car? That would mean you know him and you were there when this happened. The only known facts are that Trayvon is dead and Zimmerman shot him. It’s also known that he called the police. A witness said that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him. Is it true? I don’t know, witnesses are frequently wrong. The facts are few and the speculative information is suspect.
The racial slur comment has been reported as not being a racial slur since the initial allegation. It’s very odd that people would assume it was a racial slur when it was bleeped out. It’s also been reported that he was mentoring black youths. Seems odd for a racist.
Just another case of piling on without all the facts. The lawyer in the video is right, but I would argue that it’s because of all the hype that’s been piled on. Prosecution is going to push for a conviction it can’t get because everybody is calling for Zimmerman to be burned at the stake.
What seems absurd to me is that everybody seems to have picked a side already. Nobody knows all of the facts. How can you jump on one side or the other?
The point Papantonio is making is that we will never know the truth because the Stanford Police department did not do their job.
why did the Stanford Police department not do their job? What did they hope to achieve?
“OTP – Occupy The Patriarchy” ~ me
Always keep an open mind and a compassionate heart. ~ Phil Jackson
All the local buzz seems to be that the Sanford PD is just incompetent. I don’t live there so I can’t assume it to be true, but people in Sanford seem to think that’s the case.
The issue here is that, for whatever reason, a person was shot dead on the street. Take away the gun and everybody stays alive. It’s an issue of the value of a human life vs. a felt need for the power to destroy that life for one’s own gratification.
It’s a matter of different value structures. For me, there is nothing that Martin could have done that justified his death in that manner. There is nothing that Zimmerman thought that justified his decision to exercise the power to kill. For those who think that other people are obstacles to their desires, the killing can be justified by any action or circumstance that implied Martin’s otherness. It’s an emotional issue, based on irreconcilable basic philosophy.
There is footage already released showing that Zimmermann did not have facial injuries or visible blood nor required medical attention after the incident, despite the spin released by ‘his side’ as this has developed. That seems to obliterate both the ‘we only have hearsay’ and ‘titanic fight resulting in shooting in self defense’ memes.
I agree there is a lot of hype, but the reason the right is so defensive (and aggressive!) about this case is because it actually is a blazing example of this kind of racial hierarchical violence that is really widespread in America, which millions of people can personally relate to.
Also Clint Eastwood as a person deserves a little more credit, he’s pretty cool. Have you heard Eastwood on gay marriage lately? (I get you mean the western showdown iconography but i’d like to note the real man himself, not just his character style
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Hongpong.com
Kathy;
Been following your AGW discussion at JOM. Well done. But. if they can’t defeat your argument, Maguire will delete you. Carry on the good fight
That low resolution video shows nothing. A broken nose, after the bleeding stops, isn’t necessarily going to be visible from across a room with piss poor resolution. I’ll give you that he appears to be uninjured, but the video isn’t high def.
Racial hierarchical violence? As soon as you make that argument you beg me to bring in the fact that most black Americans murdered are the victims of other black Americans. It’s a BS argument. No matter how it went down the way it’s playing out is complete BS with a guy being assumed a racist without the hard evidence being in. So does this mean Latinos are above blacks in the hierarchy? I can see the same kind of scenario playing out if it was a white person shooting a Hispanic. Is there nobody out there that thinks maybe, just maybe, the guy is telling the truth? The more people that pile on against this guy the more I defend him. This should be a court case not a media case.
I didn’t crap on Clint. I like him. The original post seemed a bit less than kind to him. I looked up his quote on gay marriage and I gotta say that he hits the nail on the head. Who the hell cares what other people do. Thanks for that link.
Perhaps you can explain how prosecution can push for a conviction if there isn’t a trial because no one is arrested?
This is the point, Matt: This uproar happened because an unarmed teenager was shot dead and the police had the shooter in custody and did not arrest him. ALL ANYONE IS ASKING FOR is that George Zimmerman be arrested, so that there can be a FAIR TRIAL at which the facts will come out.
Thanks, Ben. Why don’t you jump in?
Well said, nihil. Trayvon was unarmed, and if Zimmerman had not had that gun, he would have had to settle his quarrel with Trayvon, whatever quarrel he thought he had, some other way.
Thanks, Tina. I thought I checked the link after publishing.
I did mean the type of character Eastwood has usually played, and is associated with him, not Clint Eastwood himself. I know very little about him, really.
Trayvon Martin shooting: It’s not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say
Orlando Sentinel, By Jeff Weiner, March 31
As the Trayvon Martin controversy splinters into a debate about self-defense, a central question remains: Who was heard crying for help on a 911 call in the moments before the teen was shot?
A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.
His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.
Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.
Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story.
An arrest isn’t always made the moment a crime is committed. The pressure started when the Martins got a lawyer. I believe, based on local news sources, that the pressure was high enough that it could no longer be swept under the rug. I’ve said in another thread that without the attention the Martins brought to the case initially Zimmerman may have never been charged. I think he will be now. That’s how the prosecution will push for a conviction.
You were on a roll, and I might’ve derailed the thought train. Maybe next time you’ll need help. Then, I’m in. :>)
No, that’s not true. The police wanted to arrest Zimmerman on the night of the shooting, but the prosecutor came in from 50 miles away and stopped the arrest. He overruled the police.
And THAT’S when the outrage and protests started.
Well, I appreciate you telling me I’m doing so well on my own. You wouldn’t know that from the other commenters’ reactions, but I guess that’s the point.
Thanks for posting that news, Raja!
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Always keep an open mind and a compassionate heart. ~ Phil Jackson
after your “So does this mean Latinos are above blacks in the hierarchy?” question, that you don’t live in one of the parts of the country where Blacks and Hispanics can be just as racist to each other as any cracker would be to both. Or that you live in ignorance.
This Pew Poll from 2008 makes interesting reading.
In West Texas, its a definite problem although not on the scale of white against Hispanic racism, which is often even worse than White against Black racism here. Hispanics are something like 3 times more likely to be arrested and go to jail for a minor crime as Whites committing the same crime, in this area.
So all the “buzz locally” is that the cops are incompetent and not racist? So suddenly you’re willing to make some personal leaps on unsubstantiated rumors regarding the police force, but everyone else is an a-hole for making leaps with rumors from the case?
You gotta teach me that trick, it’s a neat one.
We have a justice system that allows us to hear both sides of a case, examine the evidence, lance out rumor and heresay from fact, all in a public forum. It’s called a trial. If for some reason a trial does not occur and the situation for it not occurring is fishy, all we have left is rumor, piecemeal factoids, and “he said / she said” testimony.
If you are angry at people for rumormongering, well it wouldn’t be happening if the police had done their damn jobs right. Zimmerman was not tested for powder burns, extensive forensics was not done on the scene (no arrest, why do a full work up? What for?), his statement wasn’t immediately taken (recorded) for later use, they didn’t even seize the gun! What happens now if Zimmerman gets rid of the gun? Can he be convicted at all if he says he didn’t fire the killing shot?
Why was the normal path of justice in this case circumvented by the police? All the other facts (black/white/gun laws/?) are just grim icing on a very sour cake.
I never called anyone an a-hole.
I said “All the local buzz seems to be that the Sanford PD is just incompetent. I don’t live there so I can’t assume it to be true, but people in Sanford seem to think that’s the case.”
I can’t assume it to be true. I didn’t make a leap. I stated quite clearly that this was what locals said and that I can’t assume it to be true. I offered up information that was on local news. I didn’t say it was true or false. I never said that the police were not racist. I have no reason to believe they are or are not racists.
The neat trick is making it seem like I did something wrong. I merely said what I’ve heard on local (Orange County) news. Perhaps I’m naive to attribute things to incompetence rather than malicious intent at first glance. We’ll just have to see.
Actually I moved to my current location from Broward County, FL. There’s plenty of racial tension there. There are segments of all the races that believe other races are inferior. It’s wrong. I don’t approve but it’s a reality.
My question about the hierarchy had nothing to do with race relations between blacks and Hispanics. My question was does the hierarchy, which I assumed to be a white institution in this case, place blacks below Hispanics? The idea is that the Sanford PD didn’t charge Zimmerman because Trayvon was black. It also seems that it was assumed that Zimmerman shot Trayvon, and suspected him of criminal activity, because Trayvon was black. Perhaps the racial hierarchical violence in the statement didn’t relate specifically to this, but rather was a general statement. I just thought that it was directed entirely toward a white hierarchy.
I guess, Kathy and Zot, you need to get together and decide who screwed this up. Was it the police not doing their job or the attorney not deciding to have him charged immediately? Maybe it was both. Maybe the police had botched the crime scene investigation so badly, or covered up Zimmermans guilt if you lean toward that theory, that the attorney decided it was an impossible case to try. If the police wanted to arrest him it seems that they’re not racist and trying to cover for Zimmerman.
I don’t think testing for powder burns or residue adds anything to the prosecution if he admitted to shooting Trayvon. Extensive forensics are great, but since the first responders moved Trayvon in an effort to resuscitate him I’m not sure much could be gained from forensics. There is no question that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. The question is did he do it in self-defense or just because he could? Perhaps if there are powder burns on Trayvons clothes it would indicate they were close at the time the shot was fired or, in the absence of powder burns, it would indicate that Trayvon was shot from further away.
If Zimmerman was pursuing Trayvon then Trayvon, under the stand your ground law, had to right to confront Zimmerman and defend himself. If that’s the case then I think Zimmerman should be convicted. If Zimmerman was the one attacked then the water becomes murky. Did his initial pursuit justify Trayvon attacking him IF, since it’s not clear right now, Trayvon did attack him?
You see my point then? Without an arrest (or the ability to arrest under Stand Your Ground?) , how can we do anything but base our assumptions and judgements on rumor, fact, and circumstancial evidence? What else is left but question marks and snap judgements Matty?
I honestly don’t know what happened in FL, other than that justice has definitely not been served. That’s obvious to anyone with eyes to see. So what stood in the way?
1) Stand Your Ground made an arrest/conviction impossible
2) The police fucked up the first response in a royal fashion
3) Someone on the city’s payroll is a racist / fool who botched an arrest.
If it’s #1, the law needs to go. #2, then some police need to go. #3 and the prosecutor needs to answer some hard questions and possibly face some music.
Yes, the media swooped in and turned this into a massive circus, but if whatever blocked the normal process (1, 2, or 3 above) hadn’t happened, there wouldn’t be such a black hole of reliable information for them to exploit. Maybe Trayvon Martin was a maniac on speed who attacked Zimmerman like a wild animal and Zimmerman defended himself. Maybe Zimmerman is a huge racist who hunted an innocent kid down and shot him, begging like a dog in the street. But as you pointed out, now we can’t know and not because the knowledge was beyond our control, but somewhere along the chain the system broke down. So where is that point and how o we fix it? It’s inexcusable man.
WaPo “Post Partisan” blog: Zimmerman video is the new Zapruder film – All six minutes of it.
And a recap / new details from the NYDN: George Zimmerman lost job as party security guard for being too aggressive, ex-co-worker says
NBC to do ‘internal investigation’ on Zimmerman segment
George Zimmerman: Enhanced Video Shows Injury
Yes, it does look like there are some big marks of some sort on the back of his head. Unfortunately, they do not zoom in nor explain why marks that size did not show up before, nor why they were not bandaged.
Big but though.
#1 would never make an arrest or conviction impossible unless the situation fell under the strand you ground law. The stand your ground law says you do not have to run from an aggressor. If Zimmerman was back at his car and was subsequently attacked then I can see it being a case of stand your ground. In that case, if he was pursued by Trayvon, then Trayvon would have been pursuing rather than standing his ground and Zimmerman would have been defending himself.
#2 We can’t say the police fucked up the first response since we still have very limited access to the reports. Even if they fucked it up we still have to take account of the fact that they didn’t know Trayvon was dead and had to initiate a lifesaving procedure which would make a mess of the forensics from teh word go.
#3 That’s a leap of reasoning I can’t take with the information we have right now. We simply don’t have enough information to put the very ugly label of racist onto somebody without knowing more.
The media was necessary to bring this to light since there were many questions. The police should have been more proactive, after the initial hype, in giving information that was relevant to the case. The black hole just looks like a black hole. Every day there’s more information coming out that often changes the appearance of the case. I think a lot of the information WAS beyond our ability to discover no matter how the investigation was botched. That’s the nature of crime. We can investigate it, but without being there to see it we can never know every detail.
I don’t know that the system broke down. It’s certainly tragic that a 17 year old kid died. I can’t imagine how his parents feel and I appreciate that they want to know all of the details of what went down. A tragedy isn’t always a crime. In this case we’re just going to have to see what comes out of it and examine the evidence. As I said before I don’t think, given the nature of the incident, we can ever know what happened even with the best forensics possible from start to finish after the police arrived. I just don’t think that physical evidence is enough at this point. A perfect team of forensic scientists could not have provided enough information for a conviction. The case is going to be made or lost on witness testimony. It’s a very murky pool to wade into.
If the guy shot him because he wanted to and was actively seeking blacks to kill, which I become less convinced of as days go on, then he should go to jail for the remainder of his life or be executed.
First Coast News, April 10
Orlando, FL – There’s still no word on whether George Zimmerman will be charged in the death of Trayvon Martin — but if he is, the charge won’t be first-degree murder.
The special prosecutor who’s deciding whether to file charges announced today that she’s not going to take the case to a grand jury. That’s a step that would only be required in a first-degree murder case.
Angela Corey could still charge Zimmerman with a serious felony such as manslaughter, which can carry a lengthy prison sentence.
One Florida defense attorney says the decision not to go to a grand jury means Corey won’t have to rely on potentially-unpredictable jurors. David Hill says Corey may know that there isn’t enough for a first-degree murder charge, but she wants to charge him with something else — and she now can “maintain control” of that process.
George Zimmerman’s attorneys sever ties
Los Angeles Times, By Steve Padilla, April 10
Two lawyers who had been representing George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., said Tuesday that their client had cut off contact with them and that they were no longer his legal counsel.
Attorneys Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig said in a televised news conference Tuesday afternoon in Florida that Zimmerman was not returning their email or telephone calls. They have not been in contact with him since Sunday night.
[...]
Uhrig said the final straw was Zimmerman’s decision to contact the special prosecutor reviewing the case. He had been advised to stay away from the prosecutor. “We heard today Zimmerman contacted the prosecutor’s office directly,†Uhrig said.
That bit of news left the attorneys “a bit astonished,†Uhrig said. He added that the special prosecutor’s office declined to speak with Zimmerman without counsel. Uhrig praised the office for that decision.
Zimmerman surprised his former attorneys in another way as well. They learned Tuesday, they said, that a website had been created to accept donations for Zimmerman’s defense.