Looks like he who is without sin has already cast the first stone.

about the problem of prison rape?

And then there is our body, which is ravaged by parasites and rotting from within:

It also carries the potential to devastate the lives of victims.

But child rape isn't something we should be angry about and hold against the "King of Pop"? What kind of double standard is that?

You seem to be willing to cast stones for incarcerated adults. But it's wrong to care about children who's only fault was having the wrong parents? Star struck idiots who knew his reputation, but were willing to trade their childrens' innocence for some reflected limelight by pimping their kids out for train rides and sleepovers in Michael Jackson's bed?

I am not defending Michael Jackson's squalid awful miserable life or his actions.
I'm trying to analyze in a thoughtful manner what it means for our society that this is the kind of star we create.
Michael Jackson was formed as a person in the crucible of American celebrity, almost uniquely so due to his young age achieving stardom.
He was very likely a victim of pedophilia as well as a perp.
But he could have been a cannibal torture doctor for all it matters for the purposes of my post and my argument.
His art will outlive his crimes. Let's take the good and forget the bad except for the extent we can learn from it.
So far you've contributed nothing but finger pointing and demonizing on a very tired topic. We've all been trying to outdo ourselves with how much we hate pedophiles since the late 1970s. It hasn't done shit to protect children from what I can tell.
Some kind of approach that actually looks at what causes the behavior and how to prevent it might be more helpful than "I hate child molesters!"
"Oh yeah? not as much as I hate child molesters!"
"Oh yeah, I hate child molesters so much that I'd like to set them all on fire!"
"Oh yeah, well I hate child molesters so much that I'd like to disembowel them then set them all on fire."
and yadda and yadda and yadda.
I'm sick of it. Its fake and a lie.
Bing Crosby methodically beat his own children every weekend to make up for his failure to be there during the week. Spare the rod and all that.
His kids were so fucked up that most of them killed themselves as adults.
And yet we go right on "white christmasing" and "wishing on a star" and rightfully so.
Bing's sins died with him and his victims. His art lives on.
Same with Micheal.

"Let us forgive his sins" just sounds a lot to me like "Let us forgive his sins". Which isn't analysis. It appears to be either a directive or a plea based upon some kind of moral judgment you've made about the relative worth of his art versus his pedophilia.

Maybe I'm just tone deaf that way.

But, if you didn't actually mean "Let us forgive his sins", and instead are arguing that his art, and his place in our culture, should be analyzed separately from his molesting of children, there is an edit button for your original post.

Otherwise, we are talking about the same thing, and I am disagreeing with you.

i missed that you were judge and jury for the recently departed.
why don't you go piss on someone else's grave.
the guy is dead and we can either forgive his sins or let them fester in our hearts.

"the guy is dead and we can either forgive his sins or let them fester in our hearts."

Or, we can simply hold him accountable for his failures as well as his artistic successes. Or we can be ambivalent about him, his art, and his actions, without forgiving his sins. Or we can reject the notion of sin entirely, meaning we don't need to forgive it, or let it fester in our hearts. The ability to state two choices does not make the two choices the only two valid ways to view the issue.

I also hadn't realized that having an opinion and writing it on the internet made someone judge and jury. The legal system must have changed without my noticing it. Is it only the first post expressing an opinion on the internet that is immune from this "judge and jury" charge?

sorry for wigging on you.
Still think you're full of shit on this.
The guy is dead. He's beyond human accountability.
I have very little interest in his personal crimes. They don't have wider application or meaning.
His art does.
His meaning as a cultural icon does.

I love how your self-righteous and hateful comment about pedophiles being beyond forgiveness immediately turns to hatred of victims of prison rape.
That's not righteousness, that's just hate and evil.
I don't recommend Jesus to many people, its powerful stuff, but reading the Gospels might do you a world of good.
Judge not and all that.
Hell St. Peter is widely believed to have been a murderer.
Murder is the ultimate sin and our dominant social paradigm can forgive that.

Prior to the passage of PLRA, I worked in a major prison reform effort.

I would guess I've been in more of the worst U.S. prisons, documenting overcrowding, medical care, count methods, shadow boards, evironmental issues, etc. than most people. Despite death threats and inadequate security.

I'm sure you've risked much more for prison reform - perhaps at Pelican Bay? New Mexico after they broke out the welding torches? Or in reforming the brutality of the Texas trustee system?

But I'm still pretty comfortable that your conclusion jumping re: prison issues is unjustified.

shouldn't be replying late at night.

Jimmy Page and Mick Jagger for their heroic exploits with 13 and 14 year old girls but Micheal Jackson is to be cast into the outer darkness.

Its all reprehensible and none of it changes the reality that his music enriched the lives of millions and millions.

Nothing he ever did in his life as an artist makes up for molesting one child. And he was a repeat offender.

blah blah

et tu?

I'm not endorsing his terrible awful no good personal life. The guy was a fucking freak monster disaster of a human being.

So were Bing Crosby. James Brown. Hank Williams. Kurt Cobain.

I'm not a fan of his music or his actions, never owned an record,8track, cassette, dvd.....damn I'm old!

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what it means for us as a society that this is the life led by one singled out by millions as a talent and an icon.
Its like the Central American tribes who sent their royalty to die in those weird basketball like games for the sun god.

is a bit like a bizarre IQ test. "Which shape doesn't fit with the others?" I'd say the first three were American cultural confections with astute, well organized, carefully structured temporal successes. Neda Agha Soltan was an accidental celebrity, whose singular remarkable public act - her tragic death caught on camera - was precisely in touch and intrinsically bound with the higher consciousness of her time, her people, her country, and her political reality. Which death was most significant? If by that you mean which one will is most likely to remain long in the memories of a large number of people, I have to say "none of the above".

(Gandhi they ain't. Michaelangelo? I don't think so. Mozart? Don't get me started!)

or ignoring or whitewashing. It means letting go of anger and rage.
Forgiveness is always a good option. Especially when the person is out of reach.

Well said.

Fatal flaws in the pysche of human beings are commonplace amongst so many 'unique' individuals.

We can love the sinner and condemn the evil that lurks and explodes so often out of the human pysche.

I'm pleased to see "Ben" featured in the toob compilation, the only song that I really appreciated from MJ.

It's weird calling into several shops on the way home and listening to the radio and it's all MJ on the airwaves.

Iran, North Korea, swine flu shoved aside to play pop.

There comes a time in ones life journey when one can experience and find the truth in a place where opposites/dichotomies sit together and there comes a peace that surpasses understanding.

The evil in MJ's life is just as evil as any other evil; there is no alternative but to accept the reality of life as flawed.

Yet we can wish for the highest good, knowing that it may not be achievable but goodness is the best goal.

We can try to understand but there is a real mystery to life that will not be answered in platitudes, but in the reality in knowing that some things happen for reasons we can never fully appreciate.

and I don't see how asking people to forgive a departed sinner is somehow twisted into excusing his sins.
the man became a fucking monster but that only makes the story more tragic.

to forgive someone who never acknowledged the harm they did and who paid off people in order never to be held accountable. I think it is fine to ask people to forgive MJ's sins but one shouldn't be surprised if they don't.

some decent and thoughtful points here, but lets not forget that MJ could have walked in front of a bus in 1981 and still have been an all time great.
The Off the Wall album alone (which he overwhelmingly wrote) ensured that, not to mention the early string of Jackson 5 singles.
Sure his work quality basically fell off a cliff after 1988 but that's not how you analyze musical careers. Musicians and mathematicians almost universally peak early. There are some exceptions but very few.
See Louis Armstrong for a comparable case. Until roughly 1939 he was the most important figure in Jazz, after that he was a delightful pop musician but nothing more. That doesn't erase his accomplishment.
And you bring up Elvis. For god's sake man, Elvis wrote NOTHING ever. And his best work was a long lost distant memory by 1959 (except for a brief spark in 1968). Elvis is still an all time great but if all we had left was his work after being drafted, he wouldn't even be in the minor leagues.
Again, Bob Dylan 1961-1968,1974 and a couple of years since awesome contribution, the rest of that time, a lot of embarrassing half-ass crap and rip-offs of his fans.
The Beatles? -- do we really need to get into their mostly mediocre solo careers? For god's sake, Ringo put out as many great solo albums as John Lennon.
If you think Off the Wall needs videos to be memorable, I'm sorry, but you're deaf.

being the main writer on Off the Wall but he did write "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" solo and that song basically makes the album.
here's the AllMusic review of Off the Wall:

Michael Jackson had recorded solo prior to the release of Off the Wall in 1979, but this was his breakthrough, the album that established him as an artist of astonishing talent and a bright star in his own right. This was a visionary album, a record that found a way to break disco wide open into a new world where the beat was undeniable, but not the primary focus — it was part of a colorful tapestry of lush ballads and strings, smooth soul and pop, soft rock, and alluring funk. Its roots hearken back to the Jacksons' huge mid-'70s hit "Dancing Machine," but this is an enormously fresh record, one that remains vibrant and giddily exciting years after its release. This is certainly due to Jackson's emergence as a blindingly gifted vocalist, equally skilled with overwrought ballads as "She's Out of My Life" as driving dancefloor shakers as "Working Day and Night" and "Get on the Floor," where his asides are as gripping as his delivery on the verses. It's also due to the brilliant songwriting, an intoxicating blend of strong melodies, rhythmic hooks, and indelible construction. Most of all, its success is due to the sound constructed by Jackson and producer Quincy Jones, a dazzling array of disco beats, funk guitars, clean mainstream pop, and unashamed (and therefore affecting) schmaltz that is utterly thrilling in its utter joy. This is highly professional, highly crafted music, and its details are evident, but the overall effect is nothing but pure pleasure. Jackson and Jones expanded this approach on the blockbuster Thriller, often with equally stunning results, but they never bettered it.

...that his creativity dwindled from the get go. As a child "musician", his task was to do what he was told to do. Only after he physically matured a bit did he actually get to engage in the creative process. It peaked at "Off the Wall". This is a classic case of living one's whole life around some of the finest musicians in the genre, and being able to tap into THEIR creativity whenever needed. If anyone should take credit for MJ's musical fame, it should be Quincy Jones.

Distrust anyone who wants to teach you something.

but Michael was the one possessed by genius.
Arguments that Quincy Jones was the driving force in their collaboration are as specious as similar arguments that George Martin was more important than Lennon/McCartney.
Both remind me of the Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare's plays argument in seeking to explain musical genius via some sort of credentialism.
And Michael was a key, if not the most important factor in the success of the Jackson 5.
Motown was a music factory, but they needed great singers to do their peak work. The Funk Brothers laid down the grooves, the song writers and production teams drove the recording process, but the singers had to deliver the goods. Michael delivered in spades for Berry Gordy & co.

were for my dollar the supreme talents of the age.
I was strictly referring to their fall off in quality as solo artists.
But Michael Jackson won't be remembered as a songwriter, he was a major songwriter but its as a performer that he excelled.
This obsession with insisting that performers be songwriters to be taken seriously is a canard.
Pavaroti, Sinatra and Crosby didn't write any major songs. That wasn't their job. They were SINGERS.
And MJ's "claim to fame" and his musical merit are two dramatically different things. The yokels talking about the videos and the people seriously evaluating his musical contributions are two discrete sets.
MJ didn't write the majority of his own music but he got sole credit for Billie Jean, Beat It, Wanna Be Starting Something, Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, and almost every song on BAD. That's a serious body of work.
But its just a small fraction of his overall contribution.
Obviously the videos are a big part of his contribution, maybe even the largest part. But if you want to speculate that he'd be forgotten if not for his videos, you're speaking out of a complete ignorance of 70s R&B and pop.

its completely Apple to oranges.
the Beatles were primary songwriters and studio artists. They were great live performers in their very early days, but by 1965 their concerts were a joke.
As a performer MJ crushed them. As songwriters they crushed him. For a body of work, if you're talking about great albums, its not even close. MJ only made one indisputably great album. The Beatles made....how many albums did they make -- they were all great. Sure Beatles For Sale and Magical Mystery Tour and Let It Be aren't as great as the others, but they're still great albums that would've been career highlights for 90% of rock bands.
MJ's primary units were the single, the live performance and the video. The guy was on tour for the better part of 30 years. He blew away millions with stunning shows for most of that time.
The Beatles basically invented rock video as a form, but MJ perfected it. Even songs like Ghost that aren't that notable as audio tracks become amazing pieces in the videos.
All of this is really beside the point and I failed in communicating the reason for my post.
MJ's horrible experience and actions at the apex of American culture make me question the whole project. If this is our best, what are we effing doing?

As a performer MJ crushed them. As songwriters they crushed him. For a body of work, if you're talking about great albums, its not even close.

While there is no evidence Jackson wrote music for the Jackson 5, he wrote songs for the next incarnation - The Jacksons, once the group was able to obtain legal control over the artistic process. Michael and another group member wrote their first hit as The Jacksons - "Shake Your Body." (I wonder if "shake your booty" is a derivative phrase).

This seems to be the beginning of his songwriting career.

...Apple to Motown.

Distrust anyone who wants to teach you something.

what I was trying to do was avoid a judgemental discussion of his personal life. instead I triggered a stupid one and then participated in it.
what i was hoping to trigger was a discussion about the horror that Michael Jackson became after 25 years at the apex of American society and culture.
I'm not even that big a fan of MJ. In the 80's I mostly tried to ignore him but have come to appreciate his work over time. The aesthetics was certainly not where I wanted to go with this.
"As funeral rites for the king support royalty, so funeral rituals for celebrities can become support for intellectual feudalism."
Now this is an interesting point. That could be a whole post.

...it was a Government plot?

Distrust anyone who wants to teach you something.

not :), however there is the theory there was a emp directly over MJ's house when he had his cardiac arrest ;)

...conclusion to that observation in the more "conjectural theory oriented" [if you take my meaning] blogs.

“The absence of any US-Iran bilateral channel...may have the perverse effect of reinforcing Iranian interest in progressing in the nuclear realm so that the US will be forced to take it seriously and engage it directly." ~ Richard Haass

I remind myself they didn't have zippers in Michelangelo's day. For some inexplicable reason, he never bothered to invent them, for which Whitcome Judson must have been everlastingly grateful when he discovered this oversight several centuries later. So I should have said, "...preferable if Michelangelo had kept his breeches on...".

Minutiae to be sure, but as we know the Agonist posters are sticklers for absolute accuracy in all matters including, apparently, whether Michael Jackson was, in fact, a child molester. Ahem. In my opinion, the parade of opportunists and charlatans surrounding MJ that have stepped out into the light since the singer's death suggests that any true information about his private life is, and probably will remain, unknown to the public. (And puh-leeze don't tell me that an out-of-court settlement on any issue is an admission of guilt. For instance, Google "Taser International" if you need clarification on that point. People have careers and products to protect and a long drawn out court battle pawed over by the tabloid media could easily thwart those goals. Michael Jackson was both a career-in-progress and a product.)

Finally, I really, really think somebody should bury the guy soon both literally and figuratively.