9/11 Conspiracy Theories - fact or fiction? With poll.


The editors have combined the previous two threads into this one, with a link to Joe's poll. Please enjoy your NinEleven® conspiracy discussion here.
The submissions below cover the US governments recent release of reports which seek to counter the claims of an "angry minority" of people - people who are convinced (at least to some degree) that there was a conspiracy involved in 9/11.

Based on discussion in that thread, and because I believe that this "angry minority" is larger than many might believe, I've created a poll which will hopefully gauge the opinion of Agonist readers in this matter.

Are you satisfied with the government's explanation regarding what really happened on 9/11?

Please vote!

http://agonist.org/poll/regarding_9_11_conspiracy_theories

Mark's article post(2 U.S. Reports Seek to Counter Conspiracy Theories About 9/11) that started this discussion is after the jump

September 2, 2006
2 U.S. Reports Seek to Counter Conspiracy Theories About 9/11
By JIM DWYER
Faced with an angry minority of people who believe the Sept. 11 attacks were part of a shadowy and sprawling plot run by Americans, separate reports were published this week by the State Department and a federal science agency insisting that the catastrophes were caused by hijackers who used commercial airliners as weapons.

The official narrative of the attacks has been attacked as little more than a cover story by an assortment of radio hosts, academics, amateur filmmakers and others who have spread their arguments on the Internet and cable television in America and abroad. As a motive, they suggest that the Bush administration wanted to use the attacks to justify military action in the Middle East.

Most elaborately, they propose that the collapse of the World Trade Center was actually caused by explosive charges secretly planted in the buildings, rather than by the destructive force of the airliners that thundered into the towers and set them ablaze.

The government reports and officials say the demolition argument is utterly implausible on a number of grounds. Indeed, few proponents of the explosives theory are willing to venture explanations of how daunting logistical problems would be overcome, such as planting thousands of pounds of explosives in busy office towers.

Nevertheless, federal officials say they moved to affirm the conventional history of the day because of the persistence of what they call “alternative theories.” On Wednesday, the National Institute of Standards and Technology issued a seven-page study based on its earlier 10,000-page report on how and why the trade center collapsed. The full report, released a year ago, and the new study, in a question and answer format, are available online at http://wtc.nist.gov.

About a dozen researchers produced the new study over the last two months by assembling material from the longer report that addressed the conspiracy claims.

“With the fifth anniversary coming up, there seemed to be more play for the alternative viewpoints,” said Michael E. Newman, a spokesman for the institute. “We have received e-mails and phone calls asking us to respond to these theories, and we felt that this fact sheet was the best means of doing so.”

A nationwide poll taken earlier this summer by the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University found that more than a third of those surveyed said the federal government either took part in the attacks or allowed them to happen. And 16 percent said the destruction of the trade center was aided by explosives hidden in the buildings. The survey questioned 1,010 adults by telephone and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus four percentage points. Details are available at http://newspolls.org.

The demolition theory has managed to endure what would seem to be enormous obstacles to its practicality. Controlled demolition is done from the bottom of buildings, not the top, to take advantage of gravity, and there is little dispute that the collapse of the two towers began high in the towers, in the areas where the airplanes struck.

Moreover, a demolition project would have required the tower walls to be opened on dozens of floors, followed by the insertion of thousands of pounds of explosives, fuses and ignition mechanisms, all sneaked past the security stations, inside hundreds of feet of walls on all four faces of both buildings. Then the walls presumably would have been closed up.

All this would have had to take place without attracting the notice of any of the thousands of tenants and workers in either building; no witness has ever reported such activity. Then on the morning of Sept. 11, the demolition explosives would have had to withstand the impacts of the airplanes, since the collapse did not begin for 57 minutes in one tower, and 102 minutes in the other.

Those who believe in the demolition theory remain unpersuaded by government statements new or old, and the officials who issued the would-be rejoinders say they are not surprised. “We realize that this fact sheet won’t convince those who hold to the alternative theories that our findings are sound,” Mr. Newman said. “In fact, the fact sheet was never intended for them. It is for the masses who have seen or heard the alternative theory claims and want balance.”

Mr. Newman was correct that the institute’s reports would not convert those who favor the demolition theories, said Kevin Ryan, who is the coeditor of an online publication, www.journalof911studies.com, that has published much of the material arguing that the government’s accounts are false.

“The list of answers NIST has provided is generating more questions, and more skepticism, than ever before,” Mr. Ryan said.

Mr. Newman said, “NIST respects the opinions of others who do not agree with the findings in its report on the collapses of WTC1 and WTC2.”

The State Department report, which officials said was written independently of the new institute study, is titled, “The Top Sept. 11 Conspiracy Theories” and says, “Numerous unfounded conspiracy theories about the Sept. 11 attacks continue to circulate, especially on the Internet.” Produced by an arm of the State Department known as a “counter-misinformation team,” the report is dated Aug. 28 and appears as a special feature on the department’s Web site, at http://usinfo.state.gov/media/misinformation.html.

The report brought to light one little-known detail about the morning: a private demolition monitoring firm, Protec Documentation Services, had seismographs at several construction sites in Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn.

Those machines documented the tremors of the falling towers, but captured no ground vibrations before the collapses from demolition charges or bombs, according to a separate report by Brent Blanchard, the director of field operations for Protec. It is available online at www.implosionworld.com.

Asked for comment, Mr. Ryan said that his online 9/11 journal would soon publish an article on those seismic recordings. He also maintained that the Protec paper did not adequately address why puffs of smoke were seen being expelled from some of the floors. However, the federal investigators said that about 70 percent of a building’s volume consists of air, and what looked like puffs of smoke were jets of air — and dust — that were pushed ahead of the collapse.

Among those now propelling the argument that explosives took down the trade center is Steven E. Jones, a physics professor at Brigham Young University, coeditor with Mr. Ryan of www.journalof911studies.com, which published his paper, “Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse on 9-11-2001?”

In an e-mail message yesterday, Professor Jones did not explain how so much explosive could have been positioned in the two buildings without drawing attention. “Others are researching the maintenance activity in the buildings in the weeks prior to 9/11/2001,” he wrote.

He said his investigation was finding fluorine and zinc in metal debris and dust gathered from near the trade center site, and argued that those elements should not have been found in the building compounds. “We are investigating the possibility of thermite-based arson and demolition,” he wrote, referring to compounds that, under controlled circumstances, can cut through steel.

The federal investigators at the National Institute of Standards and Technology state that enormous quantities of thermite would have to be applied to the structural columns to damage them. Not so, said Professor Jones; he said he and others were investigating “superthermite.”

Professor Jones also argues that the molten steel found in the rubble was evidence of demolition explosives because an ordinary airplane fire would not generate enough heat. He cited photographs of construction equipment removing debris that appeared to be red.

In rebuttal, Mr. Blanchard of Protec said that if there had been any molten steel in the rubble, it would have permanently damaged any excavation equipment encountering it. “As a fundamental point, if an excavator or grapple ever dug into a pile of molten steel heated to excess of 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, it would completely lose its ability to function,” Mr. Blanchard wrote. “At a minimum, the hydraulics would immediately fail and its moving parts would bond together or seize up.”
LINK


Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 11:30pm

an investigation by a party that lacked any vested interest in the outcome of said investigation. At least then we might get a somewhat more balanced reading of the evidence....

-5.75,-4.05 "The invisible hand of Adam Smith seems to offer an extended middle finger to an awful lot of people"---George Carlin

justadood September 4, 2006 - 11:47am

investigation. I've read many of the conspiracy theories and they lack substance. This event deserved nothing less than a bipartisan committee to turn out a believeable report--they failed in their mission to produce such an account. The one they wrote is inferior to the task they were given.

canuck September 4, 2006 - 12:40pm

It does make you wonder when, shortly after 9/11, Bush43 did not fire or discipline the general in charge of NORAD who utterly failed to accomplish the intercept of any of the four hijacked aircraft. Instead, Bush43 PROMOTED the general and made him the commander of the new Northern Command...responsible for the military components of Homeland Security. Sounds a lot like a reward for good and faithful service, doesn't it?

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor September 4, 2006 - 4:14pm

U.S. Reports Seek to Counter Conspiracy Theories About 9/11
Jim Dwyer | New York | September 2

NYT - Faced with an angry minority of people who believe the Sept. 11 attacks were part of a shadowy and sprawling plot run by Americans, separate reports were published this week by the State Department and a federal science agency insisting that the catastrophes were caused by hijackers who used commercial airliners as weapons.

The official narrative of the attacks has been attacked as little more than a cover story by an assortment of radio hosts, academics, amateur filmmakers and others who have spread their arguments on the Internet and cable television in America and abroad. As a motive, they suggest that the Bush administration wanted to use the attacks to justify military action in the Middle East.

Most elaborately, they propose that the collapse of the World Trade Center was actually caused by explosive charges secretly planted in the buildings, rather than by the destructive force of the airliners that thundered into the towers and set them ablaze.

- Mark September 2, 2006 - 4:07pm

How about a poll?
I'd be curious about how the agonist population regards these theories.

Be sure to watch this video first, if you haven't already.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 2, 2006 - 8:22pm

One video deserves another.
Penn & Teller: "Bullshit"
- Man in the Middle September 2, 2006 - 10:01pm

Interesting
I don't understand either the purpose or the intended audience for this video. Those who believe that there appear to be serious logical discrepancies in the offical explanations for 9/11 will hardly be swayed by relentless ad hominen attacks, straw man arguments and adolescent vulgarity.

It seems little a "snort, snort, that augta shut the little busturds up" display of nastiness that in itself may only add to the growing list of disquieting, unanswered questions.

Who made this video? For whom? Who paid for it? Why? Showtime demands a certain level of production professionism, and that does not come cheap.

Personally, I think Penn and Teller are tremendously entertaining and clever performers. It's very unpleasant to see them abandon these strengths.
- Chickadee September 3, 2006 - 2:03am

So, I'm thinking
You'd rather not see a poll on this issue.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 3, 2006 - 2:21am

Chickadee, I agree that the piece does nothing
to disprove the theories. It just frames nicely my reaction to the conspiracy theories and how much time I care to devote to "debating" them.

The piece that Joe linked to offers the same points that have been disproven to my satisfaction, over and over.

There's conspiracy aplenty afoot, and it all involves the further enrichment of the governing elite and their associates at the expense of the U.S. taxpayers. Let's work on that one.
- Man in the Middle September 3, 2006 - 10:08pm

some more interesting reading
Bin laden "confession" -about that tape...
http://www.theunaol.com/article02.htm

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14566.htm

- bernadene September 3, 2006 - 11:22pm

I agree
and the Agonist has always been anti-conspiracy theories. Someone could make a poll, but my guess would be that most readers don't go for the conspiracy stuff.
- candy September 4, 2006 - 3:53am

As Bernadene's links point out
There is at least one irreconcilable fact - that the buildings, and especially Building 11, pancaked. Physically impossible without help. I submit that the complete lack of impact holes, or even indentations/markings from the 50 ton engines of the 757 which supposedly smacked into the pentagon is another. There wasn't even a dark spot where they should have impacted.

If you don't want to make a poll then I wont argue about it, but I'd be willing to bet you a significant amount of money, prestige, slave labor, or whatever currency you prefer that the percentage of average readers who are (at least) not convinced by the governments explanation is much higher than you might think.

Conspiracy theories are typically not held by significant minorities in a population, and my guess is that the poll will go at least 50-50.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 5:45am

make a poll :) eom
- candy September 4, 2006 - 6:01am

I love how everyone always talks about
how "impossible" everything is and how that "proves" things. I've been around a long time and I've reasonable knowledge about how to break, blow up, and otherwise spindilate things. You've never seen everything. Explanations of these type of phenomena which depend on that sort of mechanism are inherently weak - they're great for just so stories, but they don't do so hot in the real world.

For a structure that wasn't struck by a 757 they sure as hell pulled a lot of identifiable 757 debris out of the deep bowels of the Pentagon, including engine parts and gear segments. The impact hole in the outer facade of the structure was a bit under 100 feet wide, which easily fits the central fuselage and engine pods of a 757. The trail of destruction extended from E ring through to C ring, destroying and damaging column after column.

- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 8:58am

Regarding the "100 foot" impact hole

> The impact hole in the outer facade of the structure was a bit under 100 feet wide

Actually, no. That was the size of the hole which resulted from the collapse of the surrounding wall, several hours after the original "impact".

The original impact hole looked like this:

With the enlarged area around the "hole" :

Look real hard there. Notice how the walls are still intact? Do you see any engine holes?

Note also the complete lack of any luggage, bodies, tires, or other parts in that last picture as well. A complete 757-200, weighing many hundreds of tons, all just "disappeared" into the inside of the building, without knocking down a wall, or creating anything more than a hole as wide as two doors.

I understand your (and others) hesitancy here, but I submit that you and others here do not, in fact, "love how everyone talks about" this at all. :-) Indeed, for being one of the most reasonable and insightful voices on this site, I'd call your analysis on this one somewhat limited in scope - no insult intended, of course.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 11:36am

How much experience do you have
reading forensic engineering reports to be evaluating any of this? Do you have any idea what happens to an airplane and run it into the side of structure as robust as the Pentagon? The best forensic simulation of the event that I've seen, out of Purdue, uses the analogy of a liquid, in that the airplane and its contents very quickly became debris streams "flowing" through the interior of the structure.

As to whether I see engine holes, how exactly is it that the engines are supposed to poke nice neat holes in the outer shell of the structure distinct from the rest of the impact damage? I see damage exactly consistent with what I'd expect - a long slot in the structure, of which your second still shows the right half, and the still below shows the left. (You'll also note that the second still shows damage which is to the left of the subsequent line of collapse.)

[okay, there's supposed to be a photo here, but it's only appearing intermittantly - you can certainly find a copy in the Building Performance Report as referenced below]

If you look at the second still you've posted, and look at the annotated version of in in the Pentagon Building Performance Report [pdf], (page 16, Figure 3.9) you'll note that the vertical pillar to the right of the cable spools is column line 18; if you look at the pillar to the left side of the damage in the still that I've just posted (page 16, Figure 3.8), you'll note that that's column line 8. Compare both of those with the graphic that I posted previously above, and you get a hole, which you can see exists in both stills prior to the collapse, about 100 feet across.

What you've got in the first still you posted is a blow up that gets only the second storey part of the hole and omits all the damage clearly visible in the second still you posted (obscured behind the spray). The hole behind the spray extends all the way from below the window that's on fire to at or slightly behind the visible edge of the firetruck.

[irritatingly there's supposed to be another photo here as well, I'll see if I can find a source that permits direct links]

Take a 757 and run it at an angle into the side of a hardened structure like the Pentagon (they had just finished hardening that segment of the structure against terrorist attack by truck bomb) and that's what you'd expect - a hole that "neatly" encompasses the path of both engine pods, the central wingbox and fuselage.
- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 12:58pm

While we're on the topic,
the collapse occurred approximately 20 minutes after impact, not several hours (which explains why there are comparatively few pre-collapse photos). Additionally, there are a number of pictures in existence, of which this is an example, showing debris from the aircraft in front of the building.

- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 2:08pm

The ten-foot wide hole on
the first floor in the first picture I provided is, in fact, the largest hole in the building at the time directly following the impact. There is nothing obscured by the smoke in the second picture, except ordinary, undamaged structure. Note that the window on the left side remains intact in the first still, along with the windows around most of the damaged area.

I submit therefore that your claim regarding a 100 foot hole is simply not substantiated in any direct photographic evidence - even if the "drawing" in the government report would have you believe it to be so.

I have copies of the original hi-resolution photos as well - it's quite easy to filter the smoke and see solid walls.

So, you fall back on the old "liquified theory", which would have us believe that the entire airplane just sort of melted in real time and flowed through the hole (leaving the partial hanging upright in the doorframe).

Unfortunately, your original retort nullifies that theory, because the pieces that they "pulled out of there" are bigger than the original hole. :-) Therefore, melting and flowing is not a viable alternative either - unless they retained their original form after cooling (kinda like the terminator...)

I see now that you've edited your original comment to include a rather large graphic. Again note carefully the absence of ANY wreckage in that picture. No luggage, no bodies, no wing, no tires, no nothing. And again, filter the smoke out of that, and look carefully behind the spray, and you see intact walls and windows. That picture serves only to illustrate even more clearly that nothing on the order of a 757 impacted the pentagon.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 2:30pm

Hehe
Yes, but note that its that's the only one you'll find of the wreckage.

I've seen plenty of Cessnas with the same shape and color, but never a 757. :-)
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 2:33pm

Lord love a duck.
How is it that you can believe that the hole shown in your first still is the largest hole in the structure, when the second still that you've posted clearly demonstrates that there's a much larger hole immediately below it? The hole that you posted in the first still is the flaming aperture in the second storey (flames at ground level of the second storey) "NE" of the firefighter walking back to the truck. All that stuff under the flaming aperture - that's a great big hole. If the first ten foot wide hole is the largest hole, why is it that I can see into the building all along ground level? Sure looks like a great big hole to me and if you read the Building Performance Report you'll be able to see the left side of it as well.

If you can't see the GREAT BIG HOLE all along the ground level in all that direct photographic evidence, I can't help you.

Sorry about the jiggering around with the stills - I'm having problems findings sites that will allow direct links to photos.

- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 3:05pm

Clearly we've entered the realm of belief
rather than fact. Yes indeedy, you with a couple of Internet photos know more than the American Society of Civil Engineers with access to as complete a set of facts as they could manage over the course of several months.

Good luck with belief. Pray that you never have to test beliefs against reality - it's a harsh experience.

- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 3:07pm

Clearly we've entered the realm of denial.
If this really is a piece of the plane, then what happens to your "liquefied theory"? If physics forces the entire mass into the building, then how did this one, single piece end up here? You can have it one way or the other, but the simple fact that you present your liquefied theory above and then postulate this completely intact, and completely unique piece of the plane escaped liquefication makes you appear to be grasping for straws.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 3:23pm

God and ducks have very little to do with this
You claim that all of those supporting uprights and window frames remaining on the first floor are actually just one, long, linear hole.

I disagree.

I claim instead that they are, in fact supporting uprights and window frames, and not the absence thereof.

Honestly, if you cant see enough detail between both pictures to recognize that there simply is not enough room for a 757 to fit into that space, then we probably ought to wind this down. Next you'll be telling us that Building 11 pancaked because of wind shear.

I really just wanted to see the results of the poll here, young sir. I don't claim to be smarter than you, nor a better analyst than you, nor more qualified to expound on "engineering documents". Indeed, I have admired your skill and patience, but in this case I honestly believe that the government is not being forthcoming with the truth.

- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 3:38pm


of the exact same pillars shown in the original schematic graphic that I cited originally. If you'd bother to invest the same energy in reading the Building Performance Report (Figure 3.9, page 16) that you do in making snide remarks, as to what you believe I would or would not tell you regarding wind shear you would see that.

Interesting thing about polls - they say very little about what's true, just what folks believe to be the case. A solid majority of folks that went to the polls last time voted for Shrub, even given his remarkably poor performance in his first mandate.
- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 3:57pm

Joe, I'm not grasping at straws
but I have a four year old wanting to go to the park - more later.

- JustPlainDave September 4, 2006 - 3:59pm

Not my intent to be snide
I regret if it appeared so. I'm really trying to be careful and courteous here, since I do realize that I'm taking a position which is not widely regarded as viable among the regular users here. It does seem to me that you've changed tack from your original retort, at first you seemed to overlook the collapse of the building, but that may just by my perception.

I've seen any number of photographic histories of plane accidents, even the ones where they impact at full speed into solid ground, nose first. The one thing that's always, always there is debris - luggage, shoes, seats, etc. And there's none of that in any of the photographs at the pentagon.

I don't particularly enjoy being the odd man out on this issue, either. I'd much rather be on the side which mocks and poohpoohs the nutty tinfoil hat wearing fellow. Unfortunately, I cant. I'm stuck here with my senses and my intelligence, albeit limited, telling me that there's no plane wreck there.

And in the end, the govt. still hasn't borne out their claims.. they could end this speculation by publishing the complete footage from all of the security cameras which were seized. Alternatively, they could allow the FAA to conduct a formal investigation into the accident, that's never happened either.

Again, I meant no disrespect, but I maintain that you've been rather easily placated in this matter.
- Joes Bar and Grill September 4, 2006 - 5:14pm

just wishing for an investigation
When you block investigation then the conspiracy theories, no matter how wild, are just as conrrect as any denials.
- Joaquin September 4, 2006 - 11:32am

Editor September 4, 2006 - 10:21pm

contention in the Information Clearing House article i posted above...there have NOT been any satisfactory investigations and a lot of the evidence needed for complete ones have been carted off, off limits, held as "national security" or destroyed.

and NO ONE has been held accountable for any incompetance anywhere! Least of all by Congress or Americans themselves.
*********************************************
If this were 1700, they'd be saying: "Since civilization began, slavery has existed. It's human nature." I would have believed it. If 1800: "Women will never vote. They are not born rational". I would have believed it.
2006: Make war irrelevant

bernadene September 5, 2006 - 12:22am

...and I've studied crash aftermaths with some dilgence (my formative aviation experience was at age 12 watching folks dig out what was left of a light aircraft that had attempted to loop without sufficient ground clearance and impacted vertically). The size of a crash scene can vary significantly; yes, there is typically debris (and usually lots of it) but it can vary a lot, particularly in what's visible. If you look at something like the ValuJet 592 crash in the Everglades you get a very discrete debris field; if you look at Lockerbie, you get a very diffuse one (about 400 square miles, IIRC). In the case of the Pentagon, the vast majority of the debris ended up inside the Pentagon where there was a very intense fire, associated with a building collapsing on top of it. There's still a good deal of material left, but a lot of it wasn't real recognizable. The links that I posted before showed clear depictions of engine parts recovered from the scene, and there are also stills floating around depicting gear pieces, all consistent with what we'd expect off a 757-200. The notion that a significant fraction of the a/c would be consumed by fire really isn't that remarkable - look at the aftermath of Flight 358 from last summer in Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Air_France_Flight_358_aerial_view.jpg

A large part of the a/c was consumed by the fire, and that's one where they had equipment with good access on site immediately. When one doesn't have access, such as when the debris is inside another structure, stuff burns right down. Look at this still from Desert One:

http://www.helis.com/featured/operations/eagleclawcrash1.jpg

There's really not a lot of that airframe left. If one runs it into a building, the fact that one gets stuff that looks like this isn't surprising:

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/trb.jpg

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/pillarwreckage.jpg

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/landinggear002.jpg

As to the assertion that the still above's the only picture of debris outside the structure, there's a fair bit of stuff from outside the structure:

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/scraps1.jpg

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/paintedpiece2.jpg

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/imgs/primedpiece1.jpg

http://www.pentagonresearch.com/images/043.jpg

I "overlook" the collapse because all of the stills that we've focussed on are pre-collapse - I have asserted that there is definitely damage outside the collapse area, to the north, as is shown in Figure 3.8 - but for most of our discussion thusfar, it's not very germane.

As to the "liquification" - I didn't say that the aircraft was literally liquified, I said that it behaved, after introduction into the structure through the large hole it punched in the facade, in a way analogous to a liquid, in the sense that it behaved as a mass of progressively smaller and increasingly chewed up pieces that comprised debris streams running through the first floor space. This explains why the zone of major structural damage got progressively narrower, the further one goes into the space - more and more of the damage was caused by the heaviest, densest components of the airframe (i.e., engine and gear pieces) with areas outside the axis of travel receiving more diffuse damage. This also explains why it is that there isn't a Wile E. Coyote style hole in the exact shape of the aircraft in the side of the structure - instead there was a long, one storey tall gash at ground level extending roughly between column lines 8 and 18. The "liquification" analogy does not mean that absolutely every speck of the aircraft was introduced into the structure - in fact, the fact that the hole is somewhat narrower than the wingspan of the aircraft pretty much demands that a significant portion of the material remain outside the structure, as likely do the pre-building-impact strikes on materials immediately in front of the structure.

As to the FAA investigating, the body that investigates civil aviation crashes is the NTSB - unless there are indications of criminal activity, in which case the FBI takes the lead, as it did in this case. The NTSB did play a major role in advising the FBI and participated in the investigation and in the recovery of the flight data and cockpit voice recorders from the Pentagon flight and the Pennsylvania flight (none were recovered from the WTC flights).

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave September 5, 2006 - 12:23am

It's appreciated that the discussion from the original news posting was copied here, but was it necessary to remove the entire original post?

Joes Bar and Grill September 5, 2006 - 3:23am

We did the merge so as not to have comments spread across two discussion threads and the poll. We made every effort to preserve all the content from both; unfortunately, it was not possible to preserve the comment indentation. The original thread starts here. The comments are in chronological order. We regret any inconvenience.

Editor September 5, 2006 - 8:43am

But the original article which was posted by Mark is gone forever? The link and partial text of the NYT report which documented the government's release of the it's own version of the story is completely gone.

Am I to take it then that "enjoying the NinEleven conspiracy discussion" is to be limited to the diaries, then? It would have been nice to know beforehand, before the entire thread of the discussion was lost, and before the entire article was removed.

Joes Bar and Grill September 5, 2006 - 8:59am

I posted the NYT times article in full after the jump of your post. Joe normally we do not get into conspiracy theories or discussion at the Agonist. Meaning no offense to you but conspiracy discussions tend to get out of hand, emotional and they have actively been avoided since we were overwhelmed with them on the BB system. We have never posted them in news and and not on the front page. It was allowed in the newsqueue because it was a story about the government reports refuting the theories. That the govt has actually tried to refute them instead of brushing them off was news. I know it is a fine line that we are walking but are trying to keep everyone happy.



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina September 5, 2006 - 9:16am

I'm must confess I'm disappointed and somewhat shocked at the arbitrary deletion of content without warning.

Joes Bar and Grill September 5, 2006 - 10:05am

not removed from the board. The comment "Previous threads merged here:" on this thread opens with Marks post. This board does not enable smooth merging of threads. I'm sorry you are disappointed but we can only do what we can with what we have. This was not arbitrary it was an effort to lessen the confusion of having competing threads.



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina September 5, 2006 - 10:14am

eom

Joes Bar and Grill September 5, 2006 - 10:19am

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