The Mark of The Beast In An Unfree Society


Is always, always, exit-visas.

I was told last night that a leader of Code Pink, the anti-war women’s action group, was refused entry to Canada.

There are those, here at the Agonist, who think everything is ok, because Americans don't like what Republicans have done. I say that doesn't matter that much. Belief only matters when it leads to action:

In Boulder, two days ago, a rosy-cheeked thirtysomething mother of two small children, in soft yoga velours, started to tear up when she said to me: `I want to take action but I am so scared. I look at my kids and I am scared. How do you deal with fear? Is it safer for them if I act or stay quiet? I don’t want to get on a list.’ In DC, before that, a beefy, handsome civil servant, a government department head — probably a Republican — confides in a lowered voice that he is scared to sign the new ID requirement for all government employees, that exposes all his most personal information to the State — but he is scared not to sign it: `If I don’t, I lose my job, my house. It’s like the German National ID card,’ he said quietly. This morning in Denver I talked for almost an hour to a brave, much-decorated high-level military leader who is not only on the watch list for his criticism of the administration — his family is now on the list. He has undertaken many dangerous combat missions in his service to his country over the course of his career, but his voice cracks when he talks about the possibility that he is exposing his children to harassment.

Jim Spencer, a former columnist for the Denver Post who has been critical of the Bush administration, told me today that I could use his name: he is on the watch list. An attorney contacts me to say that she told her colleagues at the Justice Department not to torture a detainee; she says she then faced a criminal investigation, a professional referral, saw her emails deleted — and now she is on the watch list.

Pretty soon, the combination of lists, plus the requirement that all passenger manifests must go to DHS for approval before boarding passes are issued will mean that you can't leave the US by land, sea or air if you're on the watch list.

That's an exit visa by another name. There is no judicial oversight, there is no way to get off. Once you're on, you're on.

And if you're thinking that a Democratic president will stop it... well, maybe. But neither "free speech zones" nor the "no fly" list started under Bush, they started under Clinton.


Ian Welsh October 12, 2007 - 9:27am

well done Ian!

dk October 12, 2007 - 9:44am

I'm just cribbing Naomi. But 3 years ago at BOPnews, Oldman and I discussed what the clear unambiguous signs would be - and we agreed on exit visas as the most unambiguous of the bunch. It really creeps me out and I'm not happy at all that Canada is cooperating.

Ian Welsh October 12, 2007 - 9:47am

see this that adrena posted?(U.S. wants passenger data for all sun-seeker flights) Do you think Canada will change their flight plans or cave?

There are those, here at the Agonist, who think everything is ok, because Americans don't like what Republicans have done

huh?

Tina October 12, 2007 - 10:01am

eom

Ian Welsh October 12, 2007 - 3:25pm

- eom


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 12, 2007 - 3:50pm

Some countries expel political dissenters. The U.S keeps them in.

adrena October 12, 2007 - 4:00pm

adding the word 'holocaust' to your googled list, Gordon. I bet that mention of this word has been the death knell of quite a few arguments.

adrena October 12, 2007 - 5:24pm

with that in the title. Don't care how good it is, I'm not reading it.

And people wonder how the fundies can get away the "persecuted Christian" shit.

Gordon October 12, 2007 - 6:09pm

The title is a bit over-the-top, true. But it really doesn't evoke Godwin's law beyond that.



Turn back to the Constitution - and
READ it.

Rick October 12, 2007 - 10:38pm

One would think a tight regime would like to get rid of dissidents, but I'm with Ian on this. Closing the borders inward is a very bad sign.

Why do regimes attempt exit visa schemes? I can see several reasons.

1) To raise the general level of personal fear. "You're trapped, we can imprison you, torture you any time we want to, unless you do exactly what we say."

2) To aid in controlling people by means of fear for their families. If really stuck, one would like to be able to send one's family away while still continuing work -- whether ordinary work or resistance work. If a family can't leave, the regime gains a kind of super-control. Saddam, for example, used this very effectively to ensure the "loyalty" of his inner circle. Stalin did the same. It's a powerful technique.

3) To prevent dissidents from going overseas and continuing to oppose the regime from outside. In most cases, opposition by expatriates is toothless and does not attract much attention, but occasionally it can become a bit of problem for a regime. In our case I don't think expatriates can accomplish anything substantive, so I don't think this one would apply much here.

In general terms, I don't think it's possible to predict how this would all go down. Each country is somewhat different. The U.S. is unique in many ways, and overall I would say it would be difficult to control events here by direct use or threat of force, particularly in large cities.

Without a really credible threat of wide-scale force, fear itself becomes their only weapon. In order to retain credibility, they would have to tighten the screws gradually, waiting for widespread acquiescence to each step. That's what's happening now, but it's a very tricky line to walk. It's not clear whether they can succeed with that in the long run.

One crucial factor is getting control over individual dissenting communications. It is hard for me to see how a regime could accomplish that here in the face of cell phones, voicemail, fax, CDs and DVDs and memory sticks, as well as so many forms of wired and wireless internet communication, with or without encryption. That is why the telco immunity issue seems so important, but the vacuum-cleaner approach only goes so far. It is mainly useful after something noticeable has happened, not so much before. The so-called "data mining" technique makes this more scary, because it can uncover webs of association among apparently unrelated people and organizations. I'm wondering whether that prospect was what impelled so many Justice Department officials to consider resignation.

Control over mass broadcast communications, on the other hand, is basically a fait accompli here. That's a tremendous plus for any regime.

If there is a serious attempt at gaining tight internal control -- and that is by no means certain at this point -- the outcome cannot be predicted. The situation is far too complex for simple answers. I'm sure the Neocons are war-gaming a lot of this, but I doubt that a simulation can accurately predict events involving strong public emotion. Positive social feedback -- the "tipping point" -- is very difficult, maybe even impossible to model.

dratman October 13, 2007 - 1:35pm

I'll just focus on one sentence.

"Without a really credible threat of wide-scale force..." Thank you for that. Most of our armed forces are busy, and there's strong evidence that many in military (importantly, many at the upper levels) are very unhappy with their civilian bosses, and for reasons that should make most of us proud. Most of what happens here is completely out of public view, but I expect we'll hear more (eg, the AF IG's investigation into nukes at Barksdale could change everything in a heartbeat).

One might also note that there is absolutely no love lost between the military and Blackwater, or indeed between the professional organization for military contractors and Blackwater. With those kinds of friends, Congress might even sprout a vertebrae or two.

"...fear itself becomes their only weapon.". Exactly. See FDR's number one soundbite. And it is for this exact reason that I get extremely upset when bloggers, with the best of intentions, trying to draw attention to some very important information, make the supreme strategic and tactical error of screaming "Nazis! Fascists! It's all over! It's too late!" and generally attempting to sow panic in a population who are just beginning to grasp that the current administration's use of the same technique has been calculated, dishonest and done for entirely ulterior reasons.

Joe Rideabike is not going to go from being terrified of islamofascist terrorists to be scared of homegrown Nazis. He's going to say "fuck all of you, I'm going to watch football. Hell, I probably won't even bother to vote, since both sides are utter fucking idiots who are just trying to manipulate me."

It's a trap. Not one that was laid by some sick political genius. It's a hole that Arthur Silber started digging at least 5 years ago, and one that Naomi Wolf has fallen down. Anyone who insists on following them is advised to take 20 years worth of oxygen. You'll need it.

Gordon October 13, 2007 - 4:03pm

Fold, like a deck of cards

canuck October 12, 2007 - 5:31pm

I guess this must be obvious. But why are exit visas so significant? So what if you are going to Cancun to lay on the beach? What is the connection I am not getting?

LJ October 12, 2007 - 10:47am

denied the ability to leave their country--and these people aren't nuclear scientists who know top-secret information or anything. They're US citizens who happen to have spoken out publicly against their government and its policies. If the government decides to not let such people leave and puts them on watch lists... what does that say? It means the government wants to stifle their voices. It means that it doesn't want to give them the possibility of escape. It wants them right here, where it can see them.

That's definitely the mark of an unfree society.

Bolo October 12, 2007 - 11:26am

your country, you are a captive. There's a reason why the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain were the symbols of how unfree and repressed the USSR and its subject nations were.

Ian Welsh October 12, 2007 - 3:27pm

Jim Spencer, a former columnist for the Denver Post who has been critical of the Bush administration, told me today that I could use his name: he is on the watch list. An attorney contacts me to say that she told her colleagues at the Justice Department not to torture a detainee; she says she then faced a criminal investigation, a professional referral, saw her emails deleted — and now she is on the watch list. I was told last night that a leader of Code Pink, the anti-war women’s action group, was refused entry to Canada. I hear from a tech guy who works for the airlines — again, probably a Republican — that once you are on the list you never get off. Someone else says that his friend opened his luggage to find a letter from the TSA saying that they did not appreciate his reading material. Before I go into the security lines, I find myself editing my possessions. In New York’s LaGuardia, I reluctantly found myself putting a hardcover copy of Tara McKelvey’s excellent Monstering, an expose of CIA interrogation practices, in a garbage can before I get in the security line; it is based on classified information. This morning at my hotel, before going to the airport, I threw away a very nice black T-shirt that said `We Will Not be Silenced’ — with an Arabic translation — that someone had given me, along with a copy of poems written by detainees at Guantanamo.

Naomi's full post at Firedoglake.

I just flew out here to Washington State a couple of days ago. The mountains are a sea of yellow and orange. The salmon are running. The first snows have hit the mountains. Maybe I won't hike the 18 mile hike across the Enchantments I do in the Fall. Prussic Peak will be there next year.

But Ian's post reminds me that I too did the same thing Naomi Wolf did. I edited what I carried on the airplane. How many Agonistas have or would do the same thing now?

LJ October 12, 2007 - 10:08am

- EOM


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 12, 2007 - 10:31am

Ian,
I think you're right--disaffection on its own doesn't matter much. For disaffection to be effective, though, there has to be more than just individual action. The disaffected have to have capable and effective leaders and an organization. We can't expect people to effectively resist on their own, and undertake extreme risks, because both they and we know they will get squashed...and nothing whatever will come of it.

And we are learning that the Democrats will provide neither the leaders nor the organization. Why should they? They're simply the less ruthless and rabid wing of the Party of Money. Besides them, who is left?

So after the disappointing show of the congressional Democratic leaders, I think we, as a country, have made an irrevocable choice.

Mr. Flibble October 12, 2007 - 10:15am

I am not sure how far to credit this but I have been told by a passport expediter that the State Department no longer wants to renew passports before their expiration date and will do so only reluctantly except for business travelers and except if the passport has been lost or stolen and apparently this exception is available only a limited number of times. They will allow the addition of pages but, again limit the number of pages they will add if you are not a business traveler as well as the number of times this may be done. If true, this may be due to the crunch caused by the new requirements for passports for travel to Canada, the Caribbean etc, or may be the beginning of what you fear.

Whether this is a formal policy or simply an informal bureaucratic response experienced by the expediter was not clear.

hvd October 12, 2007 - 11:38am

I loved the top of Naomi's post. By the time I got to the bottom I was furious.

Germany in the 30s had a population of 66 million, and well over 100,000 Brownshirts (they significantly outnumbered the army, which was limited to 100,000 by the Treaty of Versailles). The population had been suffering from punitive reparations for a generation. Along comes a charismatic, populist leader who actually does something for the working class.

If, instead, he had been a bumbling incoherent idiot with maybe 10,000 Brownshirts (I'm actually being generous there) and a social policy of fucking the working class (which 10 years before had had some hope under a charismatic guy with a zipper problem) and propping up the aristocracy... well, gee, history would probably be different.

Of course things are royally fucked up. Of course we need to do something about it. But this sure as hell is the wrong thing to do.

Gordon October 12, 2007 - 12:03pm

is the wrong thing to do? If it turns out to be overly alarmist, no real harm has been done.

But I'll tell you this right now -- a depression is coming, and the US is going to be hurting bad. And it is not clear to me that the US is not going to choose the next guy to come along with a "solution", even if that solution is hard right wing.

There are some reasons to be encouraged, but there are a lot of reasons not to be. Clinton's in bed with Murdoch; all of the major candidates intend to continue the occupation of Iraq; the leading Democratic candidate won't sign a pledge to restore constitutional government; both parties are falling over themselves to gut the 4th amendment.

I'm not seeing this wonderful world you're seeing Gordon. I'm just not, and neither are a lot of your fellow Americans. What I see is that the loss of freedom is proceeding apace, that the second party is ok with it (or at least doesn't intend to seriously try to stop it) and so on.

Sure, there are signs of hope (like low poll numbers). But unless those poll numbers turn into a government which changes course in significant ways - well, so what? Who cares what the people think - they're going to be given a choice to continue the occuaption of Iraq; or to continue the occupation of Iraq. They're going to be given a choice of a competent authoritarian president (Clinton) or an incompetent jack booted thug (the Republican). That's it, that's all.

How's your neighbour who doesn't sneer at your long hair anymore going to make a difference Gordon? How? What's he going to do that's going to matter?

As for the 100,000 number - see this comment:

http://agonist.org/bolo/20071012/police_raids_in_the_us#comment-132805

Frankly, Gilliard was just wrong. Local cops, corrupted by federal drug money, are more than happy to play thug for the feds - at least often enough. They like beating up hippies and liberals and gays. It isn't hard to convince them to do it. Almost none of them didn't cooperate with 1st amendment zones and so on. Folks like Blackwater will do the really nasty shit like machine gunning crowds and disappearing people, but for day to day intimidation local cops are more than up to the job.

Ian Welsh October 12, 2007 - 3:13pm

read this.

Second I have never said things are wonderful. Or even OK. You're the one deciding since I don't think things are as bleak as you think they are, I must think everything is grand. And here I thought black and white thinking was a mental habit of the other side. Sorry, my bad.

Incidentally, one of my childhood friends was missing a father because he committed suicide after being publically named by Joe McCarthy, losing his job and being hounded out of a few attempted new starts.

If you want to make a difference, you will stop preaching pessimism to the Oh Woe is Me Bop Choir and get back to fact filled, hard hitting pieces.

Overly alarmist does hurt. Just ask Bush.

Gordon October 12, 2007 - 3:36pm
Petronius October 12, 2007 - 11:29pm

( ... Link ... )


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 13, 2007 - 2:24am

Wolf's post was brilliant. It brought realism - real life - to what has become far too common and widespread in America. Intimidation has progressed down to the "little people." As I read somewhere recently (grossly rephrased) "If George W. Bush wasn't such a fk up America would already be a fascist state."

I'm not sure who at this point should be considered the "Brownshirts." The people that carry out the threats made by the likes of Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh et.al. or is it Blackwater, the mercenary murdering thugs that now have full rights to patrol the streets of America.

When Darrell Issa told Henry Waxman that he better not go to Iraq and expect to be protected by Blackwater (as would be the case thanks to privatizing) that alone should have been taken as a blunt fact against Blackwater and the beginning of the end of America's relationship with such thug organizations.

But Issa's statement wasn't much different from the earlier statements by Republican politicians that violence against judges was understandable when they made rulings that weren't in line with the extreme Republican view. Judges actually getting killed were a confirmation of that view rather than a repudiation.

The White House calls NBC to complain about statements made and topics covered by Chris Matthews. You know this is widespread. It amazes me that the left still refers to biased press coverage and practices as "lazy." It's not lazy. They're doing the job they're told to do. If they did otherwise they wouldn't have their jobs much longer.

But Republicans usually delegate hate. It's not just through well funded "Swift Boat" organizations or Malkin-Coulter-Limbaugh high volume voices. The delegating goes all the way down to the key interface points in society and government. Delegating hate and fear has two beneficial aspects to it. Foremost, it insulates the controllers from any backlash that might occur. But it also generates a class of "little" people that benefit from "Brownshirt" behavior. That's how customs agents and border guards can be so powerful, easily threatening and changing people lives. Cory Doctorow recently told of coming into the United States and stating that he would be working teaching a class. The agent he spoke to told him that the visa he got did not qualify him for that sort of work and he could be refused entry and never again allowed in the country. Doctorow explained that he had gotten the documentation he presented under instructions from the American Embassy in England. The agent told him it didn't matter. His improper entry could be used as a basis for permanent rejection. The agent was 'kind' and only gave a warning.

The transmission of fear is official and rewarded rather than punished.

The New York City police now spy on groups that might consider having demonstrations in the city. Temporary jails with improper arrests and extended incarceration without judicial review became standard. One demonstrator was charged with resisting arrest based on an edited video tape and testimony of a police officer. Fortunately the complete tape was discovered which completely exonerated the accused. But the perjury by the officer and the improper editing by the prosecutor were not punished. The U.S. military has been doing domestic spying for years. Our government spys on us and wants more power to do so. That in the name of protecting us, but who is the real point of protection? The people or the controllers?

It was infuriating when Nancy Pelosi recently lashed out at those within the democratic movement of the Democrat party actually when some people dared to demonstrate near her home. She said it was not "responsible" to attempt to quickly end the Iraq war. "Responsible" has all the connotations of the "Village's" "serious." If you want to end the war, you're not "serious" or "responsible." The bloody murderous trillion dollar cost plus meat grinder must go on. That's the "responsible" view. Thank you Nancy Pelosi. I'm surprised she's not running for Diane Feinstein's Senate seat. She'd be a clone replacement.

A while back Dick Cheney was to give a school commencement speech in Utah. Some of the students objected and planned to have an alternate commencement. The local telecom company released a statement that anyone involved with the alternate proceedings would not be considered for employment at an upcoming campus recruiting drive. That alone should have initiated proceedings to remove the monopoly status of that company.

Using the term "chilling effects" doesn't state the fear generated by these widespread and likely pervasive actions. We now look around searchingly before we dare speak, ever watchful for the "minders" of one status or another, whether they're Dick Cheney, Darrell Issa, Monica Goodling or a cop taking your bike or a customs agent sending you off to be tortured for a year or more.

Amos Anan October 12, 2007 - 12:08pm

This, of course, is the natural progression you take in the formulation of a fascist state. You start with getting thrown out of public events because of a bumper sticker you have on your car, a tee shirt you're wearing or a button stuck on your lapel. You're accosted and verbally abused in public places because you're handing out campaign literature for a candidate who is not a part of the apparatus. You begin to get funny looks in public because of a book you are carrying to read.

It is coming, folks. It is coming. The glass is being filled one drop at a time. So inconspicuously that you don't even notice. At some point we as a country will be faced with the choice of what we want to be.

What will you choose? Fear or liberty?

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity"

Mike-in-Ohio October 12, 2007 - 12:42pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIO-tCPSfHA

Ralph Nader says: "Things are worse than we thought" short video and illuminating.

Bill W NH October 12, 2007 - 1:02pm

from the WaPo

Vanessa Alarcon saw them while working at an antiwar rally in Lafayette Square last month.

"I heard someone say, 'Oh my god, look at those,' " the college senior from New York recalled. "I look up and I'm like, 'What the hell is that?' They looked kind of like dragonflies or little helicopters. But I mean, those are not insects."

Out in the crowd, Bernard Crane saw them, too.

"I'd never seen anything like it in my life," the Washington lawyer said. "They were large for dragonflies. I thought, 'Is that mechanical, or is that alive?' "

LJ October 12, 2007 - 1:42pm

Iron Heel by Jack London. 1984 by George Orwell. Fahrenheit 451 by Rab Bradbury. Network the Movie (1976). V for Vendetta.

ZEITGEISTmovie.com.

WAKE UP!!! AmeriKa is ALREADY Nazi.

Now what???

"They got the Guns, We got The Numbers." - The Doors 5 to 1.

Get ready. Get organized. Get off your ass. Stop watching the BRAINWASH BOX. It's time for you lazy, stupid, fat asses to actually do something more then EAT FA(S)T FOOD. THIS IS SLAVERY. WE HAVE NO FUTURE. DO YOU EVEN REALIZE THAT THE PEOPLE MAKING MAJOR DECISIONS THAT AFFECT YOUR LIVES DO NOT CARE IF YOU LIVE OR DIE.

Tell you the Truth, for the Average Brainwashed Stupid Amerikan that played video games while ROME BURNED.... Neither do I. DIE OFF. WE DON'T NEED YOU.

FascistUSA1 October 12, 2007 - 10:37pm

already and I thank God you don't get to decide who lives or dies. WE don't need responses such as yours.

Tina October 12, 2007 - 11:13pm

Holy crap.

That is one of the most chilling things I have heard in the past six years.

Thank you for posting this Ian.

Truth does not do as much good in the world as the semblance of truth does evil.

Aaron Dellutri October 13, 2007 - 2:21pm

Kudos and what we do now is resist any way we can.
Lisa Williams, Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus are the more well know prophets but I too have had these life altering paranormal type visions. I'm not that good at it though so in general I keep my mouth shut.
My impressions? It is going to happen this winter. What, I don't know, when, no idea. What do I know. Well it will be large and the numbers of people affected will be large also.

God told me not to tack up the Apocalyptic horse but suggested I need not by pool chemicals for next summer.

Lasthorseman October 13, 2007 - 6:22pm

Hoard non-perishahable food as well as fuel and water. The apocholyspe is at the door.

Pay no attention to the fact that the Dow is over 14 thousand and steady. According to Ian depression is at the door. No other credible economic prognosticators predict this. SPK, where are you on this?


“I despise idealogues masquerading as objective journalists.” - Bill O'Reilly, March 30, 2007

Mark October 13, 2007 - 9:33pm

But I find it hard to believe the crowd at the helm really want to let go of it. I often wonder, has Carl Rove really retired? Any body know what he's up to right now?

Caribdude

Caribdude October 13, 2007 - 11:33pm

The video on YouTube cannot be embedded by request. Just google Carl Rove and you'll see the video.

adrena October 14, 2007 - 7:28pm

Not that I know much about economics at all, but my layman's question might be "what was it that the US dollar was simultaneously doing as the market enumerated in US dollars was rising?"


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 14, 2007 - 6:11pm

but I believe absolutely in the immense damage that might be done by those who do.


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 14, 2007 - 6:04pm

According to the FBI FAQ on the terrorist screening database:

Who gets included in the TSDB?

Per HSPD-6, only individuals who are known or appropriately suspected to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism are included in the TSDB.

Reassured?

Psylo October 14, 2007 - 6:22pm

Does the TSDB contain information on domestic terrorists, like Timothy McVeigh?

Yes. The TSDB contains information on both international and domestic terrorists.

Which dramatically lowers the bar for what a "terrorist", and what "aiding a terrorist", is.

For example, nowadays you can be a domestic terrorist for what we used to call "arson" or "mischief" even if you had no intent to harm people.


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 14, 2007 - 6:33pm

when an appointment depended highly upon a cell phone my wife's phone was non-functioning. Well when they key in the open up this mike feature it naturally drains the battery, what transmitting all the time. It also leaves the phone in a sort of "reboot" mode and even if the battery is not dead you must remove it to return the phone to working condition. This has happened twice now so now I keep the RF signal meter handy in a effort to conclusively prove it.

Lasthorseman October 15, 2007 - 6:18pm

When the number of people on the list is large enough that it does not make sense to keep track of it or encompasses the whole... It's most dangerous now, when its size is neither 0 nor 10 pc of the population..

What we need is a way to connect to the intrinsic sense of freedom in the ordinary American/human (red,white,blue,black, brothers of any color) and maybe start up a "Put me on that LIST, please!"
And appeal to the natural security in numbers of living things -
Another reason why, I think size and diversity matters in democracies like India.. where bytheway, one actually saw the voters (mostly un-"educated" by western standards, anyways) take back their hard-won freedoms, democracy, from an "imposed" emergency in 1977 by a long-running leader who had gone overboard complete, with even a private force of her own.

Always a puzzle to me why in the west we are satisfied with two-party system, and need a-dozen options for curing headache in our walgreen aisle... but, seriously, we shall overcome, shall we ?!

kaosreset October 15, 2007 - 9:04pm

The list is already large (and falacious) enough that anyone but Rudy or Tancredo would discard it entirely. And they would probably come around when they realize how useless it is.

An FDL commenter last night said "I'm going to be really pissed if I'm not on the no-fly list!". We're there. We're just waiting for the media to realize it.

Gordon October 15, 2007 - 9:39pm

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