The Hope In Weakness (Morality II)


Here's my take on human beings.

Human Beings Are Mostly Pretty Weak

We do what we think other people approve of, pretty much. Under the right circumstances, as the Millgram and Stanford experiments demonstrated, people will do what those around them expect them to do, especially if told to do so by authority figures. It's not that hard to get people to torture. Most men will rape in the right sort of mob scene. Most people will steal. Almost everyone has been complicit in bullying when part of a group (the corollary to this is that the people you have to really watch are the ones who like shoving people around one-on-one with no witnesses. They're the sickos. Picking on people in a group is just dominance behaviour and the way humans show what the hierarchy is.)

Most people, bottom line, do what they're expected to do. Put them in a torture camp, and pretty soon they'll be torturing. Put them in a hospital and reward them for caring for people, and they'll do that too.

Some People Aren't Weak

What's always interesting about these sorts of studies and experiments is that no matter how hard you push them, if you've got a large enough sample - some people won't torture. Some people just won't kill. Some people won't steal. Some people won't tolerate corruption and look the other way. Some guys won't rape. They just won't do it. We tend to concentrate on the top line figures, but it's interesting to me that some people aren't all that effected by social pressure.

I would add that this goes for the bad seeds too. Some people really are scum. Most people can do scummy things, but they do them because they're weak and seek the approval of other people. And in doing them they may find them fun (yeah, evil can be a gas), but later they're generally wracked by remorse. But some people don't have that remorse. Some really get off on plucking the wings off of flies, of making people squirm, and don't have the empathy to feel anything is wrong about that. They lack the "it could be me" ability that is required for true moral feeling (or there are certain other ways you can go wrong and not feel bad about it, more on that in another article, perhaps).

More After the Jump

This leads to my rule:

90% Of People are Weak, About 5% Are Really Good and About 5% Are Really Bad

On good days I make that 80/10/10. It took me a while to realize this, honestly - not that there are bad people, and weak people, in the world. That was always dead obvious. But that there are good people who aren't weak, who have ethics, who are kind, and who can't be easily swayed by the crowd into doing the wrong thing. Quite a revelation, really.

This Is A Hopeful Thing

You might think that such a philosophy isn't a hopeful one. But, in fact, if most people can be swayed to either good or evil - well, I consider that hopeful. Build a society, or a community, where the norms are of kindness, justice, compassion, mercy - and people will respond. And, in general, while there is a sick joy in evil, I do also believe that people prefer to be good, and to think of themselves as good.

The anecdote that I like to use to illustrate this runs as follows. Some years ago a friend where I worked at the time came to me with a long list of complaints about co-workers. This one was a fastidious jerk. That one's work was sloppy. The other one didn't understand what he was doing. Etc... And none of them were willing to make time to help my friend, and if they were forced to they tended to do a bad job.

Here's the thing - that wasn't my experience of any of those people (and the list was extensive), except one. When I went to them with a problem they were helpful, they did good work, I didn't generally have to beg or threaten to get their help. I liked most of them.

And, of course, they knew I liked them. They knew I respected them, and thought well of their work, their ethics and their kindness. Because they knew I had a good opinion of them they wanted to keep that good opinion - they liked that someone thought they were hard working, kind, competent and generous and they were willing to do the things necessary to keep that reputation.

Same thing when I think back to teachers. Which ones got the best work from me? The ones I though believed in me, thought I was smart and competent and did great work. For them I'd go overboard, study, rewrite and work hard. Why? Because I wanted to keep their good opinion. Because I wanted to live up to what they thought of me.

They held out an image of who I could be that I wanted - a person worthy of their respect. And so, by and large, that's what they got from me (not always, but more often than not.)

It has been my experience, in general, that most people live up or down to my expectations of them. If I act like I think they're scum - they act like scum. If I act like I think they're good folks, they act like good folks.

And I think this can be generalized to society. What we expect from each other, in aggregate, is mostly what we get from each other.

And yet, of course, each of us individuall feels like there's little we can do to change the zeitgeist. Yet, together, we are responsible for it.

Still, I take it as hopeful that people do respond in this way and I feel that people do prefer good over evil, in aggregate.

When asked to be good, that is.

Somehow we seem not to ask anymore.


Ian Welsh October 4, 2007 - 11:00am
( categories: Miscellany | Opinion )

There are also interesting studies on pluralistic ignorance that show how people are swayed by the perception of a vocal minority's representing the majority view. This figures the strategy employed by propagandists, who enforce the Big Lie by constant loud repetition. The media pick this up and reiterate it, creating an echo chamber. Most people assume that this is the majority opinion reinforced by authority (experts and the people in charge). Yes, there is a weakness in most people to prefer conformity, but there is also a history of manipulating this tendency of the majority to the advantage of a powerful minority.

Pluralistic Ignorance

tjfxh October 4, 2007 - 12:09pm

In the state college system in California, both the Zimbardo and Millgram studies are taught in the 101 classes. Zinn’s books are also standard text in the required history classes.

As an interesting note on the Zimbardo study, there was a revisit of some of the participants within the last ten years or so if my memory serves me right. One of student volunteers in the study, who was a prisoner, was interviewed on video tape. The then student test prisoner was so affected by the study that he became I believe a prison psychologist to this day. The guy was very messed up from the experience and is looking for answers and working within the system to help other real prisoners.

At least there is a major motion picture coming out about renditions and torture in the next few weeks with Tom Cruz as the big actor. Hope this starts to ring some bells in the masses head what is going on.

"There are two types of folk music:
quiet folk music and loud folk music.
I play both."

Dave Alvin

Peter C October 4, 2007 - 2:23pm

It gives the big picture on those studies. Lots of background info Zimbardo got from his original notebooks that is usually ignored.
The book is a bit boring at times, but something everybody interested in this topic should read, IMO.

creativelcro October 4, 2007 - 2:55pm

This was powerful. And in keeping with the example of plucking wings off flies, check this out - http://isbushantichrist.blogspot.com/2005/04/parable-of-frogs_23.html

Nominay October 4, 2007 - 5:25pm

Dr. Ewan Cameron. He helped turn torture into something else...a science.

LJ October 4, 2007 - 6:14pm

... Two psychologists in particular played a central role: James Elmer Mitchell, who was attached to the C.I.A. team that eventually arrived in Thailand, and his colleague Bruce Jessen... Mitchell and Jessen reverse-engineered the tactics inflicted on sere trainees for use on detainees in the global war on terror, according to psychologists and others with direct knowledge of their activities. The C.I.A. put them in charge of training interrogators in the brutal techniques, including "waterboarding," at its network of "black sites." In a statement, Mitchell and Jessen said, "We are proud of the work we have done for our country."...

( ... Link ... )


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 4, 2007 - 6:26pm

a category to Ian's list: the deluded. Maybe this group is the worst--the kind that could run a concentration camp and feel sorry for themselves because of the "difficulty" of the work. But still they would know that their work was essential.

LJ October 4, 2007 - 6:32pm

and shaved the face of a hero in the mirror - a saviour of the human race. All he did in the end was define "human" somewhat narrowly.

I'm sick of the "intent" argument. Some evils are evil on their face, from the tortures of the Inquisition to the sadistic experiments of Nazi death camp doctors. Past a certain point of morally repugnant behaviour there needs to be an accounting for actions in this world as absolutes. Responsibility always rests proportionately more heavily upon those who know better; jurists - doctors - psychologists - psychiatrists - priests.

The closing scenes of "Judgement At Nuremburg" -

The real complaining party at the bar in this courtroom is civilization.

But the tribunal does say that the men in the dock are responsible for their actions.

Men who sat in black robes in judgment on other men. Men who took part in the enactment of laws and decrees the purpose of which was the extermination of human beings. Men who, in executive positions actively participated in the enforcement of these laws illegal even under German law.

The principle of criminal law in every civilized society has this in common: Any person who sways another to commit murder, any person who furnishes the lethal weapon for the purpose of the crime any person who is an accessory to the crime is guilty.

Herr Rolfe further asserts that the defendant Janning was an extraordinary jurist and acted in what he thought was the best interest of his country.

There is truth in this also. Janning, to be sure... is a tragic figure. We believe he loathed the evil he did.

But compassion for the present torture of his soul must not beget forgetfulness of the torture and the death of millions by the government of which he was a part. Janning's record and his fate illuminate the most shattering truth that has emerged from this trial. If he and all of the other defendants had been degraded perverts - if all of the leaders of the Third Reich had been sadistic monsters and maniacs - then these events would have no more moral significance than an earthquake, or any other natural catastrophe.

But this trial has shown that under a national crisis, ordinary, even able and extraordinary men can delude themselves into the commission of crimes so vast and heinous that they beggar the imagination. No one who has sat through the trial can ever forget them. Men sterilized because of political belief. A mockery made of friendship and faith. The murder of children.

How easily it can happen.

There are those in our own country, too, who today speak of the protection of country... of survival. A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy - to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. The answer to that is: Survival as what? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult.

Before the people of the world let it now be noted that here in our decision, this is what we stand for: Justice, truth, and the value of a single human being.

- Ernst Janning, the tribunal finds you guilty and sentences you to life imprisonment.

Later -

Judge Haywood... the reason I asked you to come... Those people... those millions of people... I never knew it would come to that. You must believe it.

- Herr Janning - it came to that the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent.

And indeed - "survival as what?"

As for the torturers -

"God Will" - Lyle Lovett

Who keeps on trusting you
When you've been cheating
And spending your nights on the town
And who keeps on saying that he still wants you
When you're through running around
And who keeps on loving you
When you've been lying
Saying things ain't what they seem
God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't
And that's the difference
Between God and me

So who says he'll forgive you
And says that he'll miss you
And dream of your sweet memory
God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't
And that's the difference
Between God and me


"The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential."

- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Escher Sketch October 4, 2007 - 7:38pm

Of all the ministries, one was the most frightening. Up until the last chapters of ‘Nineteen Eighty-Four,’ Winston had never even been inside of it. It was a forbidding place—windowless, surrounded with barbed-wire and hidden machine-gun emplacements. Its shrouded guards wore black uniforms and carried jointed truncheons, which they wielded whenever it suited them to do so. One simply didn’t visit the Ministry of Love. You went there when you had orders to go. Or, as we later learned, when you were dragged there as a victim. And what transpired there? Its was the temple dedicated to the cult of torture. Death might inevitably result from being sent there, but what counted was the agonizing final days or weeks before death came. Drugs, psychological experimentation, sleep deprivation and solitude. The Ministry of Love had perfected the art of destroying the free will, the character, the persona of those who fell within its clutches. Yes, they would die. But first, they would be reconciled to Big Brother. They would come to love him again.

and more...

LJ October 4, 2007 - 7:03pm

here. Disturbing discussion about what must surely be going on now--but nobody knows for sure.

LJ October 4, 2007 - 9:04pm

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.