I used to lunch in a food court across the street from 52 Division (one of the "big three" downtown divisions) and the talk from the Detectives was to the effect that they thought a lot of the New York style metrics approach, and thought that it could do well up here, though it didn't seem to be figuring prominently in practice. In the main I would suggest that much of the difference in policing culture has to do with three (possibly four) things:

1) lower incidence of gangs - Toronto's agog about the growth of gangs, but the incidence is much lower than in US metropolitan areas (and even non-metropolitan areas),

2) lower incidence of firearms, (and I suspect, but don't know, a couple of different aspects of personal search growing out of this),

3) a different societal take on multiculturalism, and

4) a somewhat different judicial context around drugs related crime, particularly WRT to mandatory minimum, harm reduction, and intellectual models for addressing it (not unrelated to a lot of the funding models used down in the States).

In response to Ian's article above, I would point out that the use of "SWAT teams" WRT to suicides has a long and successful history in a number of jurisdictions. The NYPD approach uses the ESU for that tasking - their people have special training and equipment for the duty. There's a lot of circumstances where it makes a great deal of sense - here in Toronto I'm aware of a number of situations where an individual bent on self harm was taken down by the ETF, using a shot of powdered tear gas from the 37mm followed by everyone piling on before the subject could harm himself. It doesn't look pretty, but it does work and it works well. There's any number of other scenarios where the increased manpower, training, and equipment of a gun team comes in really handy, on a regular basis. Many ETF callouts have to do with suicidal impulses/actions of one type or another, most notoriously suicide by cop. Me, personally, if I have the luxury in my manning to support a specialized unit, I'd far rather use the specialists for this sort of thing than a random pair of coppers from a scout car. Where the model falls down is if the SWAT team guys aren't properly trained for the tasking and use the paramilitary hammer on a situation that calls for a screwdriver.

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari

there's the incident where the a SWAT team used teargas on a military vet in the US. Ended with a bullet through him.

...shot are higher, or lower when the specialists are involved? At least up here, the ETF's numbers are much better - they've resolved thousands of situations involving firearms (and probably tens of thousands using other weapons) and only had to use lethal force less than ten times. Pretty damned good numbers compared to the line platoons.

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari

techniques intended for specialists w/ judgement are given to blockheads w/ no understanding of their use. Now, I'm not condoning torture in any way, but Abu Ghraib is a perfect example of that. you know, that everything looks like a nail when you only have a hammer, but a screwdriver works better?

...guys receive? Up here every gun team (IIRC, we have six) has a guy that's specially trained in mental health issues as well as being the negotiator (and the whole unit seems to be a lot better versed in headspace challenges than the typical copper). I'm given to understand that the ESU down stateside has a similar focus as I'm sure do many other units. Individuals with mental issues are the bread and butter of any special weapons team - I certainly can't speak for all teams everywhere, but the ones that I have any insight into are highly conscious of this and specifically trained to deal with it. I'm sure that one can find teams that are hammers, particularly in some of the smaller jurisdictions where training time is limited and the tasking is an addition to normal patrol duties, but it's a little sweeping to draw an unqualified parallel between Abu Ghraib and special weapons.

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari

yes, with proper training and understanding these techniques and the specialists that employ them are all good. it's when the techniques and tools filter down to those w/o the proper training and judgement that we get into trouble. Like the tasered kid, I think we both agree that those university cops sucked at take down techniques, so they used the next higher force level. but they should have been better trained in take down, before ever being given a taser to misapply. If they can't take soemone down, then they can't use a taser appropriately in my estimation. is that more clear? I wasn't dissing special teams. I was dissing idiots.

and I see the same thing at Abu Grhaib, techniques developed for breaking the most hardened terrorists being applied w/ a broad brush to folks just swept up in raids, w/ no regard for it's consequences. Unless it's your plan to make every single Iraqi fear you or hate you w/ a blind passion. Neither is very good for real nation building, tho. But if you want a generational enemy for a generational war, it's a good place to start ;>
there, now I've probably confused the issue, instead of clarifying it.
but the Lyndie England's and Charles Grainer's , well hey, they're just letting their basic instincts loose w/ permission from above.
same w/ the cops that tasered that kid. they all have permission to do these things, and so they do. They only answer to authority; unlike Specialist Darby, who answered his conscience. And we're back to having good judgement.
boy, I woke up on a morality roll today, but I'm never sure if it hurts my efforts of making myself clear ;>

time, I'm guessing you aren't black.

Had a conversation with a Chicago (white) journalist and he thought everything was great.

Different work, I suspect.

...by chance?

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari

http://mauberly.blogspot.com/

Having heard of the doings of the day, I understand why you hold your opinion (and share it).

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari

a lot of folks that were big-time hassled, one that went underground for life.

http://mauberly.blogspot.com/

infiltration of activist groups, use of agent provacatuers, indiscriminate round ups, tear gas and rubber bullets, FISA violations, no Habeas Corpus, Total Informational Awareness?
the taser ain't a billy club, but it's use is exactly the same.
just cuz you're an older white guy now who is afforded more respect (and I mean that respectfully, truly)by cops, you don't believe that the cops still beat people w/ phone books during interrogations?
that they don't raid entire neighborhoods searching for "parole violaters"?
It's not the same as when the beat cop had some discretion over his own use of force and punched whoever he felt like, true. No, it's become institutionalized brutality instead. Torture by technology.

How would the crowd have reacted had those Florida University cops used a baton on that kid. How 'bout the viewing public? then it's clear police brutality, I'd wager.
No different than watching bombings on the TV as if they were fireworks, and being horrified that people beat their dogs. you know that line in diet commercials, "Individual results may vary" , well they do when it comes to police interactions. Things may look different from your perspective now, but they aren't in my view, they're just covered up by better PR.

under W, some recent parallels.

"you don't believe that the cops still beat people w/ phone books during interrogations?"

Sure, occasionally. They have a lot of other good ways to get info, and they are more intelligent at doing it.

I also remember Rodney King and what he cost L.A. Municipalities cannot afford many of these mishaps. A small town can be bankrupted by one of them and a good plaintiff's lawyer.

"How would the crowd have reacted had those Florida University cops used a baton on that kid. How 'bout the viewing public? then it's clear police brutality, I'd wager."

This will be looked into, I believe. It was clearly excessive force, if any was needed at all. Kerry, however, seemed gutless to me; he could have used the power of the podium to shut the whole thing down.

Individual results often vary, as you suggest.

I don't see this as institutionalized, however. Surely a mindset here and there. But I'm watching this misbehavior under Bush very carefully. It's beginning to look a bit like yesteryear.

I don't share the view that the cops are one set of criminals watching another set. Cops are usually okay, working-class guys.

And having been in groups that tried to provoke cops, groups that put themselves in contexts of provocation, in order to turn events into something more political than they were, I take much of this with a grain of salt.

http://mauberly.blogspot.com/

of course, I'm occasionally pro cop. my brother was one. I deleted the paragraphs of my comment about him, in the name of brevity. I see I should have left them.
but I know for a fact that rookies are looking to bust heads, I attribute that to testosteron overdosing at the ages of 18-24, it's just natural. It's why they make good soldiers. (hey're brains aren't fully formed yet either, ever consider that fact?)
and there's always a criminal element to any grouping, ie bad apples.

but I also understand as a fact, that there are controlling forces, ie tax dollars and gov't contracts, that play a large part, if not the only part, in deciding where resources and focus are directed. and if you're at roll call when the sargeant says, today we write parking tickets, or today we bust some dope houses or factories of illegal immigrants, or bust some heads of subversive elements of our society, you're gonna do as you're told. remember, they're just hardworking working class guys, just another joe six pack trying to feed his kids and give them a better life. And if you're willing to send your kid off to die for oil to maintain your own standard of living, well, I got nothing.
yeah, that brother, that nephew. god, I wish I could get through to people. :(

a hippie. Was a Marxist. Hippies just smoked dope and generally did not like demonstrations unless they could sit around at them and smoke dope.

But as to your point, it depends on what the Sergeant says, and who orders him, and right now the orders are a little crazy. I hope we don't get back to where we were in the 60s where there was real unrest. On the other hand, a little unrest might be preferable to fascism.

I'm as confused as Numerian on the other thread. I'm starting to get the feeling that we're going to fray a bit here.

http://mauberly.blogspot.com/

society, yeah
agonist community, looks like it's coming together. which I'm very happy to see. because this is how we'll fight the system.

a piece of string walks into a bar and orders a drink.
bartender says "we don't serve your kind of string here"
so the piece of sting goes into the bathroom ties himself a sailor's foursquare and un-entwines the strings at his top end to give himself a rastafarian look and goes back to order a drink.
bartender says "aren't you the same piece of string I told I wouldn't serve?"
piece of string says "no, I'm afraid not"

sorry, I can't tell jokes in person and I'm afraid it's worse when written.

an affray at the end of all this?

http://mauberly.blogspot.com/

I used to wander frequently, late at night, or early morning, through the Jane/Finch area. At the time it was considered one of Toronto's most dangerous areas. Never had any trouble. Mind you I didn't look worth bothering, and I know how to not look like a victim. Still, it just wasn't /that/ dangerous a neighbourhood.

Issues: we have many of them, in lesser forms. But they are not nearly as complicated by the US legacy of racism. Not that we don't have racism, but it doesn't have nearly the tenor or rampant ugliness that American racism does. (One of my best friends is married to a black woman. He says in Toronto he never notices he's white/she's black. In the US he is constantly aware of it.)

...but it seems to drive a certain copper sub-species around the bend. I used to ride it for a time and the bike cops tended to be pretty cool about it, sometimes riding in the middle of the pack - talking recruiting, in fact - rather than "guarding" the perimeter. The odd motorcycle cop though, man they used to sometimes go a bit off the deep end - to the point that the intra-thin-blue-line relations got a bit testy a time or two.

"Ambiguously loose statements on the one hand, and euphemisms that link terrorism and fascism to Islam on the other, have created confusion and resentment on all sides." ~ Fariborz Mokhtari