Imagine

One of the things that constantly amazes me is the inability of some people to imagine themselves in the shoes of a Hezbollah supporter and to whinge about how Hezbollah doesn't respect Lebanon's authority.

The fact that Hezbollah is not under Lebanese government control is indeed a problem for Lebanon. But then, when Israel invaded, the other Lebanese didn't help the Shia in the occupied territories, did they? And what did the Lebanese army do?

You can't separate these things from history. Other groups may worry about Hezbollah, but Hezbollah knows that they are the only thing defending their people. I really don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding this.

Put yourself in their shoes - you spent EIGHTEEN YEARS occupied by a foreign power. The people who didn't help you, indeed who fought a civil war against you at the same time - the Christians, Druze and Sunni, want you to disarm? The ones who live north of the Litani, and won't be occupied if Israel invades again?

The Americans want you to disarm? The ones who sent in Marines, then used their navy to shell your villages, then whined that you were terrorists when you killed their troops and their spy chief? The French want you to disarm - the French who did nothing to stop Israel's invasions either time except spin uselessly around in the UN?

Think about how crazy that sounds. Really, think about it. If Hezbollah disarms what's to stop Israel from invading again? If Hezbollah is destroyed, who is going to run the hospitals, pick up the garbage, take care of the orphans and run the schools? If you're a poor southern Shia who hasn't seen government services in over a generation, why would you trust the government to take care of you?

I wouldn't disarm if I were Hezbollah. And if someone - Israel, the US, the UN, or the Lebanese who were shooting me in the back when I was fighting Israel in the 80's and 90's wants me to disarm, they can take my gun over my dead body.

But that ain't gonna happen, because after kicking Israel's butt twice, everyone knows who would win that confrontation. The Lebanese army is a joke.

If you look at things just on the basis of raw power and government services I will tell you this - Hezbollah looks more like a government and a state to me than Lebanon does. And if Lebanon wants to become a real country again, a real state, and not a fractious doormat which can be invaded by its neighbours, whether Syria or Israel, any time they feel like it, they had better figure out how to graft Hezbollah into the body politic in a way that preserves everyone's rights.

But y'know what - I'm actually optimistic. Israel actually unified Lebanon during its invasion. Amazing, but true - polls show massive support across religious, ethnic and political lines, for fighting Israel. If that sense of unity can be used to integrate Hezbollah's armed wing into the military (really, pragmatically, that would mean the opposite); if it can be used to create a mission of rebuilding Lebanon for everyone, no matter Christian, Druze, Sunni or Shia, then one day Lebanon may be a real country with a real deterrent, able to both control force in its own territory and to defend itself from outside agressors.

Is that a sure thing? Heck no. But it's a chance, and it's a chance that everyone in Lebanon should seize. Because in the long run either having the government not have a monopoly force, or not having a deterrent against foreign agressors, is not in Lebanon's best interest.

And if Israel wants peace with Lebanon, they need to forget the fantasy of 'destroying' Hezbollah. They can't do it. Instead maybe they should arrange to return all prisoners on both sides, give the mine maps to Lebanon and return the Shebaa farms to either Syria or Lebanon. Then sign a formal peace treaty and stop violating Lebanese airspace.

And if all that is done, and Hezbollah still attacks them without provocation, so be it - having given peace a fair chance war will be justified.

Until then it isn't. And until we acknowledge that self defense is a legitimate right of all people's, including Lebanese Shia, we will have no moral authority to try and broker a lopsided peace that requires one side to disarm and gives the other side everything it wants.

Ian Welsh August 14, 2006 - 4:29pm

Ian Welsh's diary | printer friendly version |

Check this out

Lebanese find destruction back home

By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer
49 minutes ago

Villagers began returning home Monday after Israel's 34-day onslaught that cut a jagged swath through southern Lebanon, leaving behind scenes of near-total destruction. In many border villages, gunmen emerged from collapsed buildings and hugged one another.

In Kafra, about six miles north of the frontier, two Hezbollah soldiers in fatigues and carrying rifles stood beneath a tree watching cars creep past bomb craters. The cease-fire was only hours old when residents in beat up cars and pickup trucks, children packed into the back, came bouncing along the ruined roads.

Smoke still rose from several of the buildings in Kafra. Entire streets lay in ruin. Bombs had smashed storefronts and apartment buildings alike all along the southern border.

....Yaroun, a community of Christians and Muslims about a mile from the border, was flattened, too, as residents came back, shocked by what they saw.

Jamila Marina screamed and wailed as she stumbled over rubble that led to her two story home. The back half of the house was collapsed onto the living room. Dazed and shocked, she ran from the living room to a smashed bedroom, screaming and grabbing up bedding.

"I don't know what we did to deserve this. I don't know what we did," she yelled....

...The hardest hit village in the south was Aita al-Shaab, the scene of one of the fiercest battles. Nothing seemed undamaged. Clothing spilled out of shattered shops. Houses and apartment buildings were piles of twisted girders and broken concrete and plaster. Power lines snapped in the wind, wrapping around cars.

Mona Qasim, an elderly woman with a headscarf and a long black coat, held a picture of her brother, killed in the last war with Israel in 1996. By her side were two daughters, one carrying a yellow scarf with the picture of Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah. She kissed it as she spoke.

A young man with a two-way radio stood nearby and said he was a Hezbollah fighter. A second appeared out of the ruins, carrying a short-stock Kalashnikov with a 30-round magazine. Neither man would give their name.

"From the first day of the bombing we were here. In the last few days we fought Israel street to street," said the young man with the radio.

Pockmarks from small arms fire covered what walls were still standing, an indication of intense house-to-house fighting.

It seemed impossible that non-fighters could still be in the town, but Mohammed Abdul Karim, an old man, appeared from his home, where the upper floor had pancaked onto the ground level.

"When the bomb hit my house we were in a room below ground," he explained.

He crawled out at night to creep through the village to scavenge food.

"This is my village. I knew where I could find some fruit and some tomatoes," he said, hunching in imitation of his posture as he sneaked around in the darkness.

.....From their hilltop post at the entrance to Marwaheen, Israelis fired warning shots at two intruding vehicles carrying western journalists. One shot blew out a tire. The firing continued as the two vehicles barreled to a stop in front of an abandoned, unfinished house.

The journalists hid inside. Outside a dozen soldiers in full camouflage and heavily armed crept toward the building, taking careful aim at the building as they tried to determine who was inside.

After 30 minutes, when the soldiers understood they were dealing with reporters, not Hezbollah, they ordered the intruders out and told them to drive back to the east.

Before they left, one soldier said in a soft voice, "Make your message a message of peace."

They refused to be photographed, and the same soldier said, "Maybe it will be different in the next generation."

Lebanese find destruction back home

stunster August 14, 2006 - 6:10pm

But Hezbollah Wants to Destroy Israel

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Nasrallah and others in Hezbollah deny Israel's right to exist. So does Ahmadinejad of Iran. We hear over and over that these entities are "existential threats" to Israel and need to be treated as such. In Hezbollah's case, they need to be disarmed if not wiped out, like Fatah. In Iran's case, every effort must be made to prevent them from getting a nuclear bomb.

But how truly existential are these threats? What can Hezbollah do to destroy Israel? What sense does it make for Iran to lob nuclear bombs at Israel, knowing the annihilation of their own country that will result. If terrible enemies such as the Soviets and the Americans could avoid nuclear warfare, why couldn't the Iranians and Israelis do the same? Obviously it would be much better if there were some magic wand to prevent Iran from developing a bomb, but so far even massive air attacks might not do the trick (not that the administration doesn't want to try). Lacking such magic, and assuming sooner or later Iran will have its bomb, it still does not follow that Israel will cease to exist.

The Saudis and other Arab countries that have long denied Israel's right to exist have now come around to accepting the Israeli state. The more Hezbollah becomes the legitimate government of Lebanon, or at least its part of Lebanon, the more it too will have to accommodate the reality of Israel. This assumes Israel really wants peace and really wants to put an end to land grabs by its settlements.

The ultimate assumption in my argument is that no madman will be head of government of Israel, Iran or any other Middle East state, and if so, there will be rational checks on this person's behavior. I used to believe this is how the world works, but after six years of the Bush administration I have to wonder.

Numerian August 14, 2006 - 8:42pm

Yes, as presently constituted

with its Jewish supremacism, its apartheid, its occupations, its expansionism, its violations of international law, its assassinations, its arrests, its kidnappings, its torture, its discriminatory law of return, its discriminatory marriage laws, its aggressions.

All good people, not just Hizballah or Iran, should be in favor of putting an end to all this.

As far as I know, neither Hizballah's nor Iran's leaders have said that the land and people in Israel should be destroyed and in practice I think they would accept an Israeli state purged of the above-mentioned deformities.

stunster August 17, 2006 - 4:59am

It works both

ways. Hezbollah and Iran are no angels in their dealings with others and in no way hold any high ground here and each have their own deformities to deal with . Iran, Hezbollah and the Israelis have no right to determine each others government and the sooner they realize that the sooner the area will calm down. If Hezbollah was only interested in changing the top govt of Israel they would have been aiming for them instead of just firing off rockets that they knew would most likely impact the Israeli citizens and not the leaders.

In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 17, 2006 - 8:25am

Yes, this was a war of freedom

Yes, this was a war of freedom verus terrorism.

US/Israel said, if you freely support Hizballah, we will terrorize you. If you freely support Hamas, we will terrorize you. And if you freely support, or favor, or vote for, or do anything we don't like, we will terrorize you.

stunster August 17, 2006 - 9:08am

Israel

wants Middle Eastern countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Egypt. Not one of them is a democracy. Israel's leaders don't care two hoots about how Arab citizens live. Didn't bother them that Kurds and Shiites were killed in Iraq under Saddam Hussein's leadership.

A more unjust country than Israel is hard to imagine. Within their country they have Apartheid citizenship. Sure other nationalities can have citizenship, but they don't enjoy all the priviledges. They were content for Iraq to have Saddam as its leader 'til Saddam 'might' have had nuclear power. Turned out Saddam had no nuclear power. Now it has a theocratic Shiite government which the United States and Isreal helped to create.

If I were an Arab, I probably would learn to hate Jews or at a minimum have great disdain for their policies.

Now Lebanon can't have Hizbollah because ? Well, mostly because they say it can't. They are determined they will be the only Middle Eastern country who has nuclear weapons.

This is the first army that has defeated it and there is no way Hizbullah is going to give up its weapons of defense. Syria isn't there any more to help it defend itself.

Question: Who is going to help UNIFIL defend itself if they attempt to disarm Hizbullah? Who is going to help UNIFIL defend itself if they attempt to stop Israel from coming into or occupying Lebanon? Or does UNIFIL just become fodder for both Hizbullah and Israel?

canuck August 15, 2006 - 11:44am

If I were a Jew

I probably would learn to hate Muslims or at a minimum have great disdain for their policies.

Your analysis is pathetic Canuck. Israel doesn't want Arab democracies? I'm sure they'd love Arab Democracies that don't want to annhilate them. In the absence of that they'll likely prefer any form of government that prevents its citizens from launching rockets against Israeli towns.

Israel wasn't bothered by the murder of Kurds and Shiites in Iraq? What are you talking about? Are you claiming that Israel was supporting Saddam Hussein? The Israelis have historically had relationships with the Kurds. If you read Michael Totten you'd know that Israel is actually quite popular with the Kurds.

Israeli has an issue with a non-state entity mounting an army, an Iranian proxy-army at that, on their border. Tell me what country wouldn't have a problem with that, especially when that Iranian-proxy army says its dedicate to your destruction?

As for a more unjust country you can't imagine, well than you are either ignorant about the world, or you have an animus against Israel that would be explained by something else.

Sully August 16, 2006 - 10:48pm

Enough with the insults

already. They are wearing thin and as you know are not allowed here.

In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 16, 2006 - 10:55pm

Is anyone keeping track -

...or you have an animus against Israel that would be explained by something else...

- of exactly how many times Sully's tried this gambit?

Escher Sketch August 17, 2006 - 3:57am

I dunno, anyone keeping track of the rhetoric...

...around the jewish supremacism and the blood crazed zionists? I've little tolerance or patience for any of it, frankly, but I don't think that one gets to hammer on the one without mentioning the other.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 17, 2006 - 7:58am

There's a difference

Two differences, actually.

1) Sully's comments were directed in a personalized way at users of this forum. My comments about Jewish supremacism and Zionist bloodlust were not directed as personalized attacks on any user of this forum, but at substantive issues of major moral import: namely, a) the actual character of the Israeli state, and b) a number of actual comments made during the war by members of the Israeli military and political leadership, and even officially in the name of the state of Israel. See these comments for examples, though they are not the only ones:

http://agonist.org/node/33335/94673#comment-94673

http://agonist.org/node/33308/94608#comment-94608

See also Israel's actions in defiance of the clear wishes of the international community:

http://agonist.org/node/33308/94493#comment-94493

http://agonist.org/node/33308/94417#comment-94417

http://agonist.org/node/33308/94466#comment-94466

The IDF clearly wanted to prolong the war, knowing that civilians in Lebanon were being killed each day by Israeli airstrikes, and in the final hours of the war it launched an extremely heavy bombardment of civilian areas in south Beirut causing the deaths of substantial numbers of civilians, including children. By any reasonable criterion, this was, in view of the nearness of the cease-fire, a militarily unnecessary and vindictive, bloodthirsty action.

Hence,

2) My comments are justifiable. By contrast, Sully's implicit accusations of anti-Semitism were not justifiable.

Israel as presently constituted is supremacist in a large number of ways. The case for that view is well explained here and here.

Second, Israel has responded to the kidnapping of one of its soldiers by killing almost 200 Palestinians in Gaza. Even the Nazis weren't usually that disproportionate during their occupation of France. And the Israeli response in Lebanon has taken the lives of 1,000 plus Lebanese non-combatants.

At what point do we stop believing Israeli claims that they don't really want to kill Arabs on such a scale? How many Arab lives have to be ended by Israeli military action before we start believing that those ordering and implementing those actions want to inflict high casualties among populations which oppose Israeli policies, as a means of intimidation? That massive 'retaliation' is a long-standing deliberate tactic by the Israeli leadership?

It's not just a recent thing either, apparently. I came across this comment by a Lebanese written just this morning:

Some misinformed misled people were preaching "peace with Israel" and alleging that 'Israel' has no beef with Lebanon, and that 'Israel' just wants to live in "peace". Is this barbarity we have been witnessing since 1947 the actions of someone who wants peace? How would you feel if the Lebanese refugees (God forbid) faced the same fate of the Palestinian refugees who never thought that they will not return home for more than 50 years? Had it not been for the resistance groups since 1982, the south would have faced the same fate of Palestine. Palesitnians and even some Lebanese in southern villages have been massacred since 1948, yet some people here would care less and still insisted that 'Israel' "doesn't" hold any grudges against Lebanon, but now el bal wesel la da2ena as we say in Arabic. Did we need the Qana, Shiyya7, Marj3youn convoy, Elqa3 and other massacres to realize that? Do we need to see more tea servers being later stabbed in the back and bombed on their way to El Beqaa3??

So I completely reject your lame attempt to lump me in with Sully. His comments stupidly and gratuitously attacked individuals on this forum. Mine addressed very substantive and weighty matters, and were decidedly not stupid or gratuitous. They were of an entirely different character from Sully's.

stunster August 17, 2006 - 4:24pm

Yeah, Sully calling an interpretation...

...that he disagrees with "pathetic", you calling one that you disagree with "lame". Totally different things. Clearly.

You want to address something substantive, the first move is to drop the emotionally loaded rhetoric - then people might actually think about it rather than dismissing it.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 17, 2006 - 7:20pm

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