The End of Israel?

Yesterday I broke one of my rules, and wrote about Palestine and Israel. It has been my experience, in my years online, that nothing is as contentious as the Palestinian question. I have been called an anti-semite, racist, imperialist pig and much worse, by both sides, for writing about the issues.

But I will confess that over the years I have moved from a strong support of the Israeli side to a disgust so deep that it is almost existential. I am not so self-righteous, so sure of my Gandhi-nature, to think that if I had been born in Palestine, as a Palestinian, that I would be committed to a non violent solution.

People don't seem to get it. Most Palestinians have never known anything but occupation. They have never known anything but curfews, residences being bulldozed, travel passes and settlers moving in increasing numbers and taking the best land, along with access to water.

They have never known anything but a boot in the face. It's that simple.

And the Israeli army, once the finest in the world, has been, as all armies are, coarsenened by the occupation. The Israeli state bemoans suicide bombers, then kills Palestinian opposition leaders with rockets - rockets they know will cause collateral damage (a phrase that means "will kill innocents"). They have complete access to the country and could easily assassinate people cleanly, without collateral casualties - they choose not to. They could arrest those same people, again easily. They chose not to. The blood is on their hands as much as those of the innocent Israeli citizens killed by Palestinian suicide bombers and rockets.

But there is much more blood on their hands. Much, much more. As with the narcissism that is America bewailing its losses (oh, you've lost 2,500, eh? How many have the Iraqis lost?) Palestinian losses are much higher than Israeli, and like Israeli they are predominantly innocent civilians who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But I find it funny too, in a dark sort of way. My cold hard calculation is that the odds favouring Israel's survival as a Jewish state have never been worse. Over time demographic realities will end the possibility of a two state solution. They will come to be an ethnic and religious minority ruling over bantustans full of Muslims who can't vote, who are subject to attack, who are not allowed enough water for agriculture, who require passes to trvel from one part of Palestine to another - people who are clearly disenfranchised second class citizens.

Failure to make peace with Palestinians; greed for more and more of Palestine; the constant underming of any faction capable of actually delivering a peace (ie. what is happening to Hamas right now); refusal to negotiate until the Palestinians have given up most of the items on the table prior to negotiation - all of these have doomed Israel to turn into South Africa.

Oh, none of this is to say that Palestinians bear no blame, let alone all the arab nations who have chosen to use the Palestinian situation as a political football. There have been despicable acts on both sides. But Israel chose to occupy Palestine - they chose to rule over non-citizens, and to keep them down with a military boot. They are the ones with the most power in the relationship - and in the end it is their dream of a safe Jewish state which is going to be destroyed by thier own actions.

For the two-state dream is dying. Failure to achieve it leaves Palestinians clearly under Israeli rule. The majority of them have never known anything but Israeli rule.

What do you call a person who is subject to the authority of a country, who was born in land that country rules, who does not have a vote?

The failure of a two state solution, the insistence that Israel has the right to do anything it wants, including arresting cabinet ministers of a foreign government, in their own country, makes it clear that Palestine is not a seperate country.

And if it is not a seperate country, then it is part of Israel. And in the end it will be recognized as such.

Soon enough America is not going to be able to afford to continue massive subsidies of Israel. Soon enough protectionism and isolationism is going to be on the upswing. Soon enough other powers, like Europe and China, will find their relative power growing.

Soon enough, Uncle Sam isn't going to be enough.

Soon enough, Israel is going to find itself all alone, locked in a country with a mjority of the population being Palestinian - Palestinians who have every reason to hate their occupiers.

And they will be faced with a series of horrible choices, choices that will either see the end of Israel as a Jewish state, will see them turn to ethnic cleansing, or will require them, at long last, to face what occupying another people's country has done to their noble dream.

Ian Welsh June 29, 2006 - 11:43am

Ian Welsh's diary | printer friendly version |

Hello, Ian

You get the added oppobrium "self-hating Jew" if, like me, you were raised in the faith.

Actually, I came today because I wanted details of what is actually happening over there. Does anyone have the blow by blow?

JoshNarins June 29, 2006 - 12:23pm

The seized Settler was found

The seized Settler was found dead. Looks like he's been dead for a while. Israel seized a bunch of Hamas government members, including ministers. Israel blew out a power generator in Gaza sending a huge chunk of Gaza into darkness. The local Gaza hospital has only enough independent power for a few days of operation.

Meanwhile Israel has moved into Gaza with ground troops and bulldozers as well.

The Hamas military faction continues to refuse to hand over the captured soldier, and of course Israel continues to refuse to negotiate.

All of this was essentially inevitable when the West, after asking Hamas to run in the Palestinian elections, insisting even, refused to accept their victory and cut off aid. Hamas has, in essence, split into factions who disagree on how to deal with Israel, and the civilian side of Hamas no longer controls the militant side. So you can no longer negotiate with Civilian Hamas because civilian Hamas can't guarantee peace.

Brilliant.

Ian Welsh June 29, 2006 - 12:41pm

heh

I'd already gotten _that_ much :)

Some other stuff includes that the Syrian President was buzzed in his Summer Palace by Israeli jets.

Roads and bridges (where????) have been taken out.

I am reading that any actual ground force invasion is being delayed, that was on the AP all over news.google.com (searching for "gaza", sorting by date) but maybe you are right.

And, according to the Boston Herald, the power plant bombed by the Israelis was insured by the US, and it would be against (us) policy to pay the (insurance) policy. Joe Lieberman has never been in such a bind (Conecticutt is the Insurance Capital of America and a good friend of Joe)

JoshNarins June 29, 2006 - 1:25pm

More postings and links

on the recent events can be found in the Israel/Palestine section.

Tina June 29, 2006 - 1:32pm

It's hard

to maintain any respect for Israel, much less affection. We need to get this country out of that "special" relationship which only contributes to the destruction of Palestine.

PW June 29, 2006 - 1:41pm

64 Hamas members arrested 38

[deleted]

JoshNarins June 29, 2006 - 1:55pm

"What would you do if you were one of them?"

It's the simplest test of the integrity of your morality--swap sides. When people refuse to consider such questions, especially when they punish those who pose such questions publically, it is a sign that something is wrong.

Far too many have died for the sake of false pride, or for a taste of what others would not share. If what you do is all you are, then waving a flag is to be nothing. Better to show compassion for the other side, for with a different turn of fate, it could be you there.

Bake a cake for someone you hate.

"Death before being dishonored any more." - Col. Ted Westhusing

Jimbo92107 June 29, 2006 - 2:44pm

roundup at WaPo: The hostage and the picnic

however some of the comments are the same-o same-o.
WaPo

A Daily Survey of What the International Online Media Are Saying
The Hostage and the Picnic

The U.S. media coverage of the ongoing Israel incursion into Gaza "has been irresponsible in not covering much about the prologue to the present violence, the Israeli military's bombing of civilians on a Gaza beach earlier in the month," says blogger Juan Cole.

much more at WaPo link

Tina June 29, 2006 - 3:09pm

Gaza Beach

Here's more on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast

"Round and round, round we go." - Tupac

Samsara June 30, 2006 - 2:37pm

Mad dog?...

Mad dog?...
Mad dog?...
anywhere?...
hello?...Helllooooo?.....?
He is supposed to be saying "Hate the Jews!" "Blame the Jews!"...oh wait, *I* didn't post any of the above, which is why it's been perfectly clear to me that this pathetic and hateful poster that the "tolerant" Agonist allows to spew out vitriole to me, personally, is after me only and the things i post.

which is why, btw candy, that i have continuing "unending admiration" for the Agonist.
"who would Jesus bomb?"

bernadene June 29, 2006 - 3:52pm

oh whatever

send maddog a pm and go at it. Are you gonna leave again, pout and come back and start all over again? If people go after to you its because of your condescending superior attitude and the tone of your post. Now if you were to write in such a thoughtful way as Ian you wouldn't have the problems you do getting your thoughts across and getting others to listen to your ideas. As always its been a pleasure.

Tina June 29, 2006 - 4:06pm

aha, finally, something to

respond to! thanks for your thoughts. sincerely.

in this metaphor, calling names is up to the line, but physical violence crosses it.
MD has crossed it again and again and you even defended him, candy, for real. so, there you go.

you are right, i do write in a condescending and superior tone of voice when i am angry that others have put something or someone down and they have no idea what they are talking about. ala the Obama posts. that was purposeful, btw, to get a reaction.

i also do it when i smell hypocrisy of the highest order, or those who think they are doing good, and are really perpetuating the harmful status quo.
i will work on that.

btw, i don't ever pout. i am in your face and it's over. kaput.

"who would Jesus bomb?"

bernadene June 29, 2006 - 4:54pm

been down this road before....

Let's take a schoolyard metaphor [apt, i think]:
If i say: "nanner nanner nanner! stick out my tongue and say....you stink!"...and then a schoolmate comes up to me and wacks me with a baseball bat, who should get punished?
Should anyone chastise the baseball batter, or do you say, "Well you deserved it, so there!"
in this metaphor, calling names is up to the line, but physical violence crosses it.
MD has crossed it again and again and you even defended him, candy, for real. so, there you go.

While I admit my logic can be devastating, I hardly think my wit has put anyone in the hospital.

Still, if you insist on posting the lowest quality of poorly thought out drivel backed by an absolutely illogical fritter-head philosophy, you have to be prepared to accept that people will call you on it on occasion.

you are right, i do write in a condescending and superior tone of voice

Too bad you never earned the right to be superior. I do so cherish that exhange you have with "tHe PeOpLe" (did I get the caps right ?). He really let the wind out of your sails, and you didnt even realize it.

when i am angry that others have put something or someone down and they have no idea what they are talking about. ala the Obama posts. that was purposeful, btw, to get a reaction.

Obama ? I dont think I have ever posted about Senator Barack Obama.

Oh, you mean your smoochy-smoochy-love-fest letter to OBL ? That was such a priceless gem of abject surrender, even for you.

btw, i don't ever pout.

I doubt many here will agree with that.

i am in your face and it's over. kaput.

You keep promising its over, yet you keep coming back.

Please make up your mind.

Mad Dog

MadDog June 29, 2006 - 6:47pm

Forgive me

if this seems insensitive, I am not Jewish nor have I ever been part of a persecuted group, but shouldn't the essence of any ethical conversation concerning the Israeli/Palestinian issues be centered around justice, tolerance, and the realization that pretty much every Israeli and every Palestinian want the same basic things, a safe place for their family to live, a decent school for their children to attend, a job that allows a person to feed their family and feel valued? Yes, I know there are more issues than those, I am neither dense nor historically illiterate, but those are SO very much the baseline issues.

And what do I see here? I see serious discussion about the death and maiming of innocent children and adults on both sides reduced and minimalized over personal affronts. People die while we blithely type in our comments, responses, and remarks. Shouldn't that give all of us, myself included, some pause for reflection?

"I beseech you in the bowels of christ think it possible you may be mistaken."

Scott M June 29, 2006 - 9:03pm

Well said, Scott.

- eom

Escher Sketch June 29, 2006 - 9:30pm

Over the timeframe when I was in the region regularly...

...(that is to say, up until five/six years ago) I noted that there was a significant hardening on both sides over time, in that yeah, pretty much folks want what you said they want - but they became increasingly willing to stack up a pretty tall pile of dead people on the other side if they interefered with those those wants. The media and academic accounts I see out of the region only indicate to me that the problem has gotten worse in the intervening period. The folks that have any capacity to see past the immediate perceived utility (and particularly emotional utility) of killing have been thoroughly marginalized from any significant power base.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 29, 2006 - 9:58pm

Hi Scott,..if you are referring to

the above exchange, there have been many serious and heartfelt discussions of this topic...and i have members of my family in Palestine, so i am no stranger to the whole mess...

the little diversion with candy and me is not usual. sometimes it just happens, yaknow?
thanks for your thoughts. serious.

"who would Jesus bomb?"

bernadene June 30, 2006 - 11:48pm

Well, hello there !

Its been a while since you last cried a river of tears and threatened never to come back. Welcome back (again), Bernadene !

Mad dog?...
Mad dog?...
anywhere?...
hello?...Helllooooo?.....?

While I dont doubt you long for another verbal beating, do you think you could give me more than 3 hours or so to respond to your post ? I do work, you know.

He is supposed to be saying "Hate the Jews!" "Blame the Jews!"

I am ? Why would I hate the jews ? While I think bombing the bridge and power plant is a big mistake, I dont hate the jews.

...oh wait, *I* didn't post any of the above,

You didnt ? You just did:

"He is supposed to be saying "Hate the Jews!" "Blame the Jews!"

Clearly you have confused me. Have you stopped taking your meds again ?

which is why it's been perfectly clear to me that this pathetic and hateful poster that the "tolerant" Agonist allows to spew out vitriole to me, personally, is after me only and the things i post.

I think many others would agree that I "spew" about more people than you, B (tsk, tsk, such an ego on your part). You just happen to be the most obvious and easy target on occasion. Your love letter to OBL was quite funny.

Really, B., if you desire to post in public you have to accept the risk that someone will disagree with you most totally. If you cant handle the risk of dissention on a bulletin board, then maybe you arent mature enough to post.

Now, just to set the record straight, if I am "after you", then why have I ignored your last 6 blog entries ?

http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060621/political_courageous_savvy_and_shes_15_years_old
http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060608/deja_my_lai_vue_all_over_again
http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060601/a_new_biowar_arms_race_begins_in_maryland
http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060528/a_deal_breaker_par_excellence
http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060521/blowin_in_the_mississippi_wind
http://agonist.org/bernadene/20060512/rove_informs_white_house_he_will_be_indicted

Mad Dog

MadDog June 29, 2006 - 6:36pm

UN envoy asks Israel to let key supplies into Gaza

UN envoy asks Israel to let key supplies into Gaza
29 Jun 2006 16:50:00 GMT
Source: Reuters
Printable view | Email this article | RSS XML [-] Text [+
By Adam Entous

JERUSALEM, June 29 (Reuters) - The United Nations asked Israel on Thursday to let critical supplies into the Gaza Strip to head off a humanitarian crisis, warning that fuel to power the sanitation system would run out within a few days.

Israeli forces have launched an offensive in the Gaza Strip to find a soldier who was abducted on Sunday by Palestinian militants. Israeli air strikes have knocked out power and water supplies in Gaza, home to 1.4 million people.

"We have an emergency situation," Alvaro de Soto, the U.N. special envoy for the Middle East peace process, told Reuters.

In addition to knocking out key power installations, de Soto said Israel has cut the pipeline that provides fuel to run the sanitation system.

"Without fuel, the sanitation pumps don't function," de Soto said. "You have women, children and ailing people. That's pretty grave. And it needs to be addressed."

De Soto, who called on the militants holding Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit to release him, said U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan spoke to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert about these humanitarian concerns.

Israeli officials had no immediate comment.

Tina June 29, 2006 - 4:48pm

two sides to the story

I go to www.sabbah.biz/mt/ A very interesting view from the other side without much cursing. Both sides are listened to. But the news is usually what you don't hear over here.

repressive governments mix administrative clumsiness & ineffiency with authoritarian tendencies.

kimmy June 29, 2006 - 6:29pm

wtf

OK, Who is this maddog?
Is he real or the Devil incarnated?
I am sorry but I didn't understand his post.
Am I really that stupid?
Don't answer maddog!

repressive governments mix administrative clumsiness & ineffiency with authoritarian tendencies.

kimmy June 29, 2006 - 9:44pm

BOO !

OK, Who is this maddog?

Mad Dog is [CENSORED]

Is he real or the Devil incarnated?

Both. Neither. Whats for lunch ?

I am sorry but I didn't understand his post.

Thats ok. Read B.'s post first then mine. My 2 posts look to be out of order, so read my second post of the 2, after reading B.s first post.

Am I really that stupid?

No. Think tounge-in-cheek when reading my response.

Don't answer maddog!

Wait !

"Dont answer, Mad Dog"

"Dont answer MadDog"

Now you tell me. : )

Mad Dog

MadDog June 29, 2006 - 11:12pm

Best

This is the fisrt article that I read about this conflict and found that has a clear and real vision of what will happen in that place of the world...This conflict in which the victim is treated as a criminal and the criminal is treated as victim, will lead the whole world into choas...And yes out of this choas China, and Europe will be the two powers of this world, cause US will be trying to heal from its war on Afghanistan and Iraq, and it's biased toward Israel, will leave her with no ally in the ME.

freeman June 29, 2006 - 10:37pm

wow, that's wild

all that time spent on me and my posts. wild. i guess i am as important as i think. thanks. not that the time spent created anything of substance or cogency or resembling truth, but time nevertheless. wow.

bernadene June 30, 2006 - 11:37pm

shucks....

all that time spent on me and my posts. wild.

Shucks, I had 10 minutes free, so I spent them mocking you. I got a good laugh out of it. I am sure others did, too.

i guess i am as important as i think. thanks.

Dont worry, we know you think a lot of yourself. You have made it abundantly clear many times.

not that the time spent created anything of substance or cogency or resembling truth, but time nevertheless. wow.

I easily demolished some of your claims. Sorry.You.Cant.Deal.With.It.

Mad Dog

MadDog July 3, 2006 - 4:14pm

Same Journey as Ian

I grew up in an upper middle class area in the '50s that was about a third Jewish. All of the people that I knew, of all religions, were liberal and humanistically oriented. The worst approbations were directed at atheists, and no more focused than "you must believe in something." At that time the John Birch Society was a shocking scandal. I lived in a very tolerant group for that time, and never met a fundamentalist of any religion until I was drafted and stationed in the South.

The assumption was that those in power in Israel were like the Jews I had grown up with. Rational people who had an interest in fairness, human dignity, liberalism and personal rights. As were the Christians I knew. I assumed, as a given, that modern day Israelis were treating the Palestinians in a democratic, liberal and humanistic manner.

But facts came to change those views. It is not an easy thing to change ones perceptions and opinions, especially in this matter,and especially in the US. At first, I didn't believe the maltreatment that was occurring. But over time, it has become obvious that there is a truly serious problem with the way the Palestinians are being treated. That the beliefs and values of the Jews that I grew up with, are not the beliefs and values of the people in power in Israel today. This is no different than my atheistic view of Christians and the US. The beliefs and values of the Christians I grew up with are not the beliefs and values of the so called "Christians" in power in the US today.

Fundamentalists have claimed and distorted both nations. Israel, like the US, is what it claims to hate. The Fundamentalists all want to send each other into their god's arms as quickly as possible. So tidy, and neat of them.

And, I have reached somewhat the same conclusion that Ian has, that this new fifty-odd year old Israel had a chance to put an end to the cycle of violence, but is only extending the horror to what will be its own suicide. The demographics are clear. Some believe the tipping point has already been reached, and that there are more Arabs than Jews in "Greater Israel". If not yet, very soon.

Will the Israelis survive better than the Afrikaners? The Afrikaners had gold, diamonds and other internal resources. The US provides the financial and military support for Israel, but the US is nearing bankruptcy. Israel will not have enough bodies and material to defend itself from inside, and the US won't be able to defend them either, though it probably will try to.

m July 3, 2006 - 12:20pm

You are just realizing this now?
The Israelis have become the terrorists with the support of the US. And Bush condones this!
Look at the number of children killed by the IOF (I will not use IDF) over the last few years. Look at the number of women and children under 18 years old incarcerated by the Israelis all in the name of defence.
These people have been occupied for over 50 years. The US has supported this occupation.
The Israelis are terrorising the Palestinians.
The Palestinians are an occupied people.
The UN is trying to help them but the US is blocking this help because they support the Israelis.
The Israelis have broken many internationl laws. But Bush still supports them.
Why?
Because Bush is so Fucking religious and the Muslim faith is anti-Christian.
Go to my earlier message. Visit Sabbah.
I am becoming so anti-christian because of Bush.

repressive governments mix administrative clumsiness & ineffiency with authoritarian tendencies.

kimmy July 4, 2006 - 12:33am

No, I am not just realizing this now

I merely described the journey from one state of awareness to another. I did not include a time line other than to give an approximate decade when I first met a fundamentalist. At that time I, like most of the nation, was focused on an the internal struggle that the US was going through. As that one resolved, many dominoes, including Israel fell.

m July 4, 2006 - 10:01am

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