...any of democracy, corruption, or competency were binaries. Do we believe that political formations that trend towards the "good" side of those things tend to be stable in the long term and tend to acquire mediating/moderating influences over that long term? Generally, yes.

Doesn't mean that political groups that take on the veneer of any or all of those things (particularly when they don't have a long term track record) can't pursue courses of action that are contrary to our interests, and it doesn't mean that they get a pass when they do so.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

is corrupt and incompetent. Hamas is not corrupt and is competent and they have a long track record in both things (their precursor organization was created in the early 70's). Because they are seen, by the Palestinians, as competent and trustworthy, and not in it for themselves, they have credibility with the Palestinians.

They can deliver a truce. Over time that may (it may not) lead to a stable, peaceful situation. And as peaceful relations are established the hatred born of violence and oppression may fade to the point where a newer generation, not steeped in blood, can make a real peace.

A long shot? Perhaps, but it has a chance. If they are forced to fail, even that small chance will go - because there is no one else who has the trust of the Palestinian people; no one else who can deliver that initial, needed, truce.

I can't see how the West and Israel has any option here. If they want to have a two way conversation with the a body representing Palestinians they have to talk to Hamas, there is nobody else. Hamas, right now, are the voice of the Palestinian people, Fatah are not.

And to make demands about renouncing violent action when they (Israel) are smashing down prison doors and killing guards is vacuous.

...that Hamas is not corrupt and competent, full stop, without qualification, that you are not looking hard enough. Were that the case they would be uniquely so for the region. The types of economic and familial associations that predominate in the region pretty much guarantee that practices that would be corrupt by our notions of the term exist. If you want to argue that they are widely perceived to be less so in these regards (and potentially, much less so) than is Fatah, then you'll get no argument from me, but it just ain't a binary scale.

WRT a truce, I agree with Col. Lang - we may well see a truce that is scrupulously honoured as to its terms and even duration if it is in the interests of Hamas to make such a truce. Don't however make any assumptions about that truce necessarily leading to lasting peace - very different cultural norms around the concept.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

assessment of the likelihood of the truce being scrupulously honored, but for a limited and delineated term, I'm reminded of the old proverb about the thief caught robbing the king's treasury.

He was sentenced to be executed, but pleaded "spare my life for a year, and I will teach your favorite horse to sing!". The king was amused and intrigued and granted him a stay of exactly one year to do so. Later in the stable, one of the stable boys asked him "what on Earth were you thinking?". The thief replied "A lot can happen in a year. I could die. The king could die. And who knows? Maybe the damned horse will learn to sing."

I am quite sure that they are not particularly corrupt and are much more competent than Fatah. Corruption is a relative term, in any case. By my Canadian standards the US government is a hopeless swelter of corruption, with bills openly bought and sold on the House floor, after all. But by, say Bengali standards, the US is not particularly corrupt. It's all relative. For the time and place, Hamas is not particularly corrupt - I'd even be willing to say that I doubt there's more corruption in Hamas than there is in US defense procurement and outsourcing - certainly absolutely, and probably relatively.

..relative terms (corruption, competency, [and perhaps even democracy]), then I think we're substantially in agreement. As an aside, I'm not sure that one can say that Congress is substantially more corrupt than the House - it may well be that it's simply more open Stateside.

The things that I wonder about have to do with whether Hamas is more than a "two trick pony" for lack of a better phrase.

They've the appearance of having a reasonable grasp of the social welfare avenue of things, though it'll be real interesting to see how they deal with suddenly having to inter-relate with their own state apparatus; I've seen similar types of organizations up close, and the soft corruption of idleness has to be seen to be believed.

On the inter-relations with Israel side, can they do something more than sponsoring suicide attacks? I'm not sure that I've seen much evidence that they can, and given the dominant ideology it very much seems to me that it remains to be proven that they even want to try to come to any sort of enduring final accord, setting aside completely the issue of them potentially being hostage to their adherents.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

Wasnt Hitler democratically elected ? Should the election process be the only criteria for acceptance ? While Hamas was elected "fair and square" that does not relieve the Palestinians of their responsibility to accept the repercussions of the vote. If Hamas is unwilling to make even the most trivial of concessions why the hell should the Israelis deal with them ?

Put another way; do you want any of your charity dollars going to an internationally recognized terrorist group ?

I think that Hamas didnt want to win as many seats as they did. How ironic.

Mad Dog

dollars being used to bomb Iraq either (and fortunately, they aren't.) Hamas is hardly the most despicable group out there being funded by the US. Last I heard they weren't boiling anyone in oil.

But again, what I really care about is pragmatics. Pragmatically, Hamas is the only group able to represent the Palestinians, and the only hope for peace.

And until they do an enabling act, I don't think Hitler comparisons work.

United Arab Emirates (UAE)
Lebanon
Syria
Iran
Libya
Saudi Arabia
Algeria
Djibouti
Malaysia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Somalia
Sudan
Tunisia
Yemen
Iraq
Palestine
Venezula

There are currently two ways to recognize legitimacy: Constitutive (Statehood according to this theory does not require diplomatic recognition by other states, but rather a recognition that it exists.) and Declarative

Quite a few of the Arab states still impose a buoycott on Israeli goods.

It's regime change full stop. The administration doesn't give a rat's ass about what it's replaced with; democracy or a dictator, it's all the same. The point from their perspective is merely to replace a regime. They don't care if it's Fritz the Cat replacing it.

Pop quiz: when's the first time you remember hearing the term "exporting democracy"?

"Exporting democracy" was a marketing term introduced after "WMD" and "9/11" were no longer marketable. "Regime change" is what they always called it behind the scenes, and made no great effort to keep the term secret.

Yeesh. Wave the word "democracy" at Americans and their IQ drops by fifty points and they look straight at a bowl of shit and call it sherbert.

quite an exchange on the old bulletin board (wipes away a sad tear of nostalgia) between someone who claimed that the USA "invented" democracy and the rest of the world

Fine, as long as you're willing to accept the fact that that will mean no peace, and the eventual destruction of Israel as a Jewish state when demographic realities kick in.

God I hate writing about Israel and Palestine.

After an initial bluster there is no indication that aid is really going to be cut off in any substantive way. The Europeans, who contribute the bulk of Palestine's aid are not making an real moves to do so (the US's contribution is rather small in comparison) and the Arab world is not going to let the Authority go down.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=asBrQGCTczSU&refer=germany