So, US Liberal Bloggers, do you really want US torture investigated?

I saw Bush for what he was before he got elected, I begged my US friends to vote for Gore, but they wanted the tax cuts Bush promised. Boy, how different would it have been if we had the Lock box Gore wanted for a rainy day and done a better job in Afganistan and not gone to war in Iraq. I wonder if there is some parallel universe branching off somewhere where Gore did get elected and life is 'dull and boring'.

Anyway, I didn't start this blog to talk about the global economic meltdown, I wanted to bring up torture, black prisons, rendition, kidnappings and other related matters, the ones that the US sppears to be shoving in the closet, trying hard to forget, and move on from. Personally, I'm starting to get disappointed in Obama, he's trying too damn hard to be Mr Nice in the middle guy, bringing everyone on board, but it is now starting to work against him. Sort of like a candle in the wind, weak, wavering and unsure. (Seriously Dude, you were given a majority and mandate, now call your party to order and most of all, figure out where you stand.)

Anyway, back to Torture. I want to remind you all that while hiding skeletons in the closet and trying to forget sounds like the simplest way to deal with it all, it's something the rest of the World is not going to let you forget. It's far better to confront it.

So, here's this story about US torture where two top judges state that the Bush Administration threatened the United Kingdom to break off intelligence co-operation over investigations of abuse and torture.

Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, said last night: "Despite best efforts to shine a light on the grubbiest aspects of the 'war on terror', the Foreign Office has claimed that the Obama administration maintained a previous US threat to reconsider intelligence sharing unless our judges kept this shameful skeleton in the closet.

If this is true, then Obama has just lost me. I want to know if the Liberal blogsphere and Americans online are going to raise hell about this and force the MSM to address it, or if it will just get filed away in that closet.

Caribdude

Caribdude February 5, 2009 - 10:33pm

Caribdude's diary | printer friendly version |

This torture thing is not going away.

The stench of war crimes (crimes against humanity) persists for a long, long time, no matter how deep those in power try to bury it.

And, to answer you question, yes, the Obama administration is now complicit in covering it up and voiding accountability. Even though it is a requirement under treaty obligations to prosecute war crimes, and Obama as a constitutional lawyer knows this, he is presenting it as an option. This is beyond disingenuous. It is conspiracy to obstruct justice.

tjfxh February 5, 2009 - 11:17pm

Could this be

the price he is willing to pay in return for Republican cooperation? Not that I approve of it. I believe Obama's stance is despicable.

_{Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.}

adrena February 5, 2009 - 11:46pm

I dunno...

The guy has only been in office two weeks. If it turns out, after some reasonable amount of time and effort, that there is really no will to "upset" the apple cart...then I'm with ya. I gotta go with wait and see until then I'm afraid.

AetiusRomulous February 5, 2009 - 11:33pm

Oh, and by the way, welcome to The Agonist.

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 12:57am

Who? Me?

Dude, I was here since about 02 or 03 or something, lol. We even emailed on here a few times. (Can't be me he's welcoming?)

Glad to see C & L covered it.

http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/uk-judges-us-threatened-them-guantana

Caribdude February 6, 2009 - 1:22am

No, not you.

Though it's good to see you back.

AetiusRomulous posted here for the first time today - and it's been customary here to throw around a few Welcomes - particularly if the personage in question indicates that s/he's new, and even goes to the trouble to introduce themselves...

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 1:27am

Don't give up on him yet

Ministers 'misled' judges over torture evidence
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ministers-misled-judges-over-torture-evidence-1547648.html

varney February 6, 2009 - 12:39am

There are two things that would upset the apple cart

and Obama has decided not to do either of them.

1. Allow the market to correct economic dislocations

2. Hold powerful people accountable for the consequences of their actions

These are obviously judgment calls. The choice is not simple, since it is between what's right and what's expedient in an atmosphere that choosing what's "right" could tear the country apart.

But there is an inevitable price to pay in both cases of choosing expediency. For example, both set a moral hazard precedent that is almost sure to create further and perhaps greater problems later. Consequences have a way of working out.

tjfxh February 6, 2009 - 12:47am

There's also the issue of rendition. Various POVs exist...

From FOX, we have talk of an expanded role:

Obama to Expand Practice of Terrorist Rendition?

Fox News, By Sean Hannity, February 5

Read the fine print. You may have missed it, since the story was published on Super Bowl Sunday, but President Obama is giving the green light to the Bush administration's practice of rendition. That is, secretly abducting terrorists and transferring them to foreign prisons to interrogate them. [But not for torture, no, never, never].

And that's not all. The Los Angeles Times reports that because Mr. Obama has scaled back other aspects of Mr. Bush's counter-terrorism program, rendition may even play an expanded role, since it's the principal mechanism remaining for dealing with terrorists.

I remember rendition provoking a bit of outrage from the press when President Bush was at the helm. Last July, Bob Herbert of The New York Times foresaw a doomsday scenario, writing, "When the constraints of the law are unlocked by the men and women in suits at the pinnacle of power, terrible things happen in the real world.

They've noticed overseas.

Obama and the treatment of terrorism suspects

* Aiming to rebuild US image in the world, the new administration is likely to seek other nations’ assistance in counterterrorism operations and detainee rehabilitation programmes

Daily Times Monitor, February 7

LAHORE: US President Barack Obama signed an executive order on February 1 approving the continued use of renditions by the CIA. The order seems to go against Obama’s campaign promise to improve the image of the United States abroad, as renditions under the Bush administration had drawn criticism worldwide, especially from members of the European Union.

Obama came into office promising changes in the way the United States combats terrorism. One of these changes was a new emphasis on legal processes and a shift away from controversial methods of treating terrorist suspects, like rendition, harsh interrogation techniques and secret prisons. The Obama administration can and will roll back some of these tactics, as demonstrated by the president’s January 22 order to close the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay. But some will continue.

Also, we have Leon Panetta (at the behest of the President, no doubt) arguing that we shouldn't prosecute CIA interrogators, who were just following orders.

Panetta says CIA's interrogators shouldn't be prosecuted if they were acting within Bush-era guidelines

USA Today, February 5

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence today held its public confirmation hearing on the nomination of former Clinton White House chief of staff Leon Panetta to be director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

[...]

Panetta said he does not favor prosecution of CIA interrogators who used waterboarding and other harsh questioning techniques to elicit information from terror suspects -- if they were operating under the authority of the Bush administration. He noted that policies allowing such interrogation techniques were approved by both the attorney general and the White House at that time.

And finally, we have the chance for another gander at Obama's policies:

Claims of Torture Abroad Face Test Monday in Court

New York Times, By John Schwartz, February 5

A case to be heard in San Francisco on Monday could provide an early look at whether President Obama will fully break with the previous administration on questions of government secrecy concerning the transfer of terrorism suspects to countries where they may face torture.

The hearing grows out of a lawsuit filed on behalf of an Ethiopian native, Binyam Mohamed, and four other detainees against a subsidiary of the Boeing Company. The suit maintains that the subsidiary, Jeppesen Dataplan, helped arrange rendition flights that took the detainees to nations where, they say, they were tortured.

The suit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union in the Federal District Court in San Francisco in May 2007. It was dismissed last February after the Bush administration asserted the “state secrets privilege,” claiming that the disclosure of information in the case could damage national security.

In the appeal, to be heard Monday by a three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, the civil liberties union argues that the government has engaged in an inappropriate blanket use of the privilege and that the case should be allowed to proceed.

[...]

But whatever the government’s lawyer says on Monday will speak volumes about the administration’s views, Mr. Wizner said.

“If he repeats the Bush administration’s argument that this case must be dismissed at the outset,” Mr.Wizner said, “then we’ll know that despite the change of administration, the policy of the United States that torture victims be shut out of the courtroom has continued.”

A guy could get disillusioned...

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 12:55am

Obama

gives with one hand and takes away with the other.

_{Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.}

adrena February 6, 2009 - 12:59am

Oh, no!

Another comparison with the Lord.

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 1:03am

More damage to come

The torture, rendition etc are bad enough. Failing to confront it or acknowledge it will do even more.

Caribdude

Caribdude February 6, 2009 - 1:25am

Yeah, no doubt.

How does one get charges filed at The Hague?

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 1:29am

International Court of Justice

Legal disputes are submitted by member states. Much more in Wiki

_{Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.}

adrena February 6, 2009 - 1:40am

And I suspect they need standing.

So perhaps the Iraqi government could get something going.

The ICC would seem to be a better venue. 108 members and 40 additional non-ratified signatories. Somebody's gotta be able to do it. (Perhaps even the US - as apparently we're bound to do).

Oh - The US hasn't ratified - so we're not subject to the ICC - so much for that.

And... vis-a-vis the ICJ: The United States withdrew from compulsory jurisdiction in 1986, and so accepts the court's jurisdiction only on a case-to-case basis.

I guess it's up to the 'bama administration - or for certain people to start seeing the world.

_{They sicken of the calm, who knew the storm.}

Raja February 6, 2009 - 1:51am

ICC Investigating Israel War Crimes

NEW YORK - The International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague announced a preliminary analysis Tuesday into whether Israel committed war crimes during the recent Gaza war, following the Palestinian National Authority's (PNA) move to recognise the ICC's authority in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Whether the ICC has jurisdiction in Gaza is expected to be a highly contentious legal issue, and the ICC investigation comes at a time of heightened debate over the legality of Israel's Gaza campaign under international law.

This renewed debate has come about in large part due to statements made by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday, in which he appeared to enshrine "disproportionate" response to provocations as official Israeli government policy.

On Tuesday, ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo made public a Jan. 21 letter from Palestinian Justice Minister Ali Khashan recognising the ICC's authority.

The ICC can only pursue investigations in states that have signed on to the Rome Statute creating the court, which Israel has not done. Khashan's letter was intended to give the ICC jurisdiction to launch an investigation in Gaza.

But the Palestinian move to recognise the court raises a set of murky legal issues, the foremost of which is whether the PNA can be considered a state. The PNA has argued that it can be considered the de facto sovereign authority in the Gaza Strip due to Israel's withdrawal from the territory in 2005.

If so, then Israel's non-recognition of the court would not prevent a war crimes investigation, since the only relevant factor is whether the alleged violations occurred in the territory of a signatory. If not, then the Gaza Strip would be considered Israeli territory and the ICC would have no jurisdiction to investigate.
More

_{Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.}

adrena February 6, 2009 - 9:08pm

Panetta also said that "if

Panetta also said that "if interrogators were unable to extract critical information from a terrorism suspect, he would seek White House approval for the C.I.A. to use methods that would go beyond those permitted under the new rules."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/us/politics/06cia.html?ref=us

Why would Obama want it investigated if he is leaving the door open for using it himself?

Manny_Fromm February 6, 2009 - 4:57am

In answer to your question...

...Hell yes! They must be prosecuted or we're proven to be the hypocrites/criminals, we appear to be.
Throughout this whole morass of deep bullshit one fact stands out: Throughout history, the most effective interrogation techniques have been intelligent engagement. IMO (based on history), the use of torture has been by sick sycophants and twisted people with twisted values. Unfortunately, our own history is rife with the worst examples of human abuse; but the best of us have always striven to rise above our base values and we are now in real danger of succumbing, once and for all to the most base and most depraved behavior with no redemption in sight. Even as a Buddhist I say god help us.

Celsius 233 February 6, 2009 - 8:32am

Another C&L Post

Hey Caribdude, I've another post at C&L on this today and almost 100 commenters just as pissed as you or I.

http://crooksandliars.com/cernig/panetta-no-prosecutions-cia-torturers

Regards, C

Steve Hynd February 7, 2009 - 3:09am

I saw it Cernig

And came to add the link and give my thoughts on it here and found your comment waiting for me :)

Using Jay McDonough's words with a slight change for those of us in the Rest of the World.

"We cannot, despite assurances otherwise, trust your government not to render and torture detainees."

I'm disgusted and I think Obama and the US are making a big mistake by not confronting it. There don't even need to be that many prosecutions of smaller folks if they were following orders, but it needs to be opened up and given 'closure' as the yanks like to say.

Sorry SPK, but your request to hold back on bashing or criticizing Obama holds no water with me, not with this. And this is someone who filled in the little circle by his name on my friends Abs. ballot talking. Secret flights, kidnappings, torture, it all makes me so sick, even more now that it's all being stuffed in the closet as it is. I'm not seeking to have my posts promoted to FP, but this one is getting plenty of responses, it's a big story, has it not been promoted because it bashes Obama? Sorry to say it, but I get that impression right now considering your latest post. Blackmailing one of your closest allies and this issues is a damn big foreign policy issue if you ask me.

And I'm sick of the image that keeps being given of all the prisoners in Gitmo being hardcore terrorists, we know this is not true. I watched Road to Guatanamo a few days ago, I've seen the stories of many who were released after years with no charges, kept for no reason other than a paranoid suspicion.

Obama represents jack shit in the name of change if this is how he intends to continue, it's something I can't compromise my humanity on regardless of whatever else he does to cut back on Bush's excesses.

Caribdude

Caribdude February 7, 2009 - 4:03am

carib, I think

you misunderstood what SP was saying and yes it is definitely a foreign policy issue.

_{"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined." -Henry David Thoreau}

Tina February 7, 2009 - 6:39am

I didn't say I was not going to criticize Obama at all. Please

re-read the fucking post. I said I was going to shut up about the stimulus package and start talking about some other fucking things.

What is so hard with plain English these days people?

^{“Is not our first thought to go on the road? The road is our source, our vault of treasures, our wealth. Only on the road does the ‘traveller’ feel like himself, at home.”

Ryszard Kapuscinski}

Sean Paul Kelley February 7, 2009 - 9:12am

Oh, dear...all this carry-on about the "intent" of your post..

recalls to mind the over-the-top exchanges a couple or so years ago prompted by an interpretation of a Jim Henley piece, where multiple f-bomb attacks were launched against posters...naughty-naughty!

_{“les Etats-unis, c’est le seul pays à être passé de la préhistoire à la décadence sans jamais connaitre la civilisation…”...Georges Clemenceau}

barrisj redux February 7, 2009 - 2:30pm

OK, no need for the f'ing

Yes, perhaps I did misread your post and I beg your forgiveness.

Caribdude

Caribdude February 7, 2009 - 9:14pm

No worries. India can stress me out sometimes

and you just happened to be the unfortunate recipient. Apologies as well from me.

Sean Paul Kelley February 9, 2009 - 12:14am

Here, in case you cannot read is what I wrote:

"But for the time being I'm just going to shut up about the stimulus plan."

That's the context followed by this:

"So, for the time being, no more Obama bashing from me, and no more criticisms of 'unity porn' and whatnot. There is a whole host of foreign policy issues I'd like to be discussing right now and will begin turning my eyes in that direction."

Before you open your mouth up and criticize me please read everything I write and judge it in its proper context. I'd say the issue of torture is one of those foreign policy issues I'd like to be discussing here. Are we understood?

Sean Paul Kelley February 7, 2009 - 9:16am

Hard Core Terrorists

I think a piece of history needs to be added that our media has studiously overlooked regarding Gitmo inmates. Some years ago a study group at Seton Hall used data drawn from our own government intelligence to show that the majority of prisoners at Gitmo were in fact victims of Afghan warlord bounty hunters who rounded up people (probably political opponents, petty criminals, and God know who else) in response to US leaflets promising substantial fees to anyone capturing "terrorists." So much for the "worst of the worst."

Aguilar February 7, 2009 - 10:42am

oh c'mon Carib

"has it not been promoted because it bashes Obama? Sorry to say it, but I get that impression right now considering your latest post."
.

I like what you write from your unique location, but you can't have read SP's entry clearly, if you think that.

I don't know why your post has not been promoted, to me it looked like there was a lot of FP kerfuffling going on at the time your piece was written. It's getting lots of responses anyway.

_{I feel the American worker has been sacrificed to the capitalist idols in the ancient Mayan fashion. - Sue Lamb, NYT reader}

nymole February 7, 2009 - 11:38am

I FP'd it shortly

after he posted, even resized the pic...

_{"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined." -Henry David Thoreau}

Tina February 7, 2009 - 5:01pm

C, is that you?

bring back Chaka/Haven and it's like Old Home week here :)

dk February 7, 2009 - 8:31am

Hey dk

I'm still watching SPK trot around the world :-), but I'm far more pressed for time nowadays than I used to be so I don't get out as much.

Caribdude, here's my latest:
http://www.newshoggers.com/blog/2009/02/will-obama-keeps-bushs-torture-secrets.html

The next big test comes Monday, when a hearing will determine whether Holden will continue the Bush administration's assertion of “state secrets privilege,” claiming that the disclosure of information in a lawsuit case involving five former detainees who allege they were victims of rendition-to-torture could damage national security.

Bush always used secrecy orders to keep evidence and detainees from even being considered by courts. The ACLU says "“If he repeats the Bush administration’s argument that this case must be dismissed at the outset, then we’ll know that despite the change of administration, the policy of the United States that torture victims be shut out of the courtroom has continued.”

But one of the plaintiff's is Binyam Mohamed, who was the subject of the UK case. There, the Obama administration thanked the UK government for keeping Bush's torturing ways secret. So don't hold your breath till Monday, please

Regards, C

Steve Hynd February 7, 2009 - 9:23am

Cheers Cernig

For keeping on the case. This is what I was hoping for with my post, to keep it alive. And it will stay alive until it is addressed, of that I am sure.

Again, sorry to all for stirring up SPK, and thanks to Tina for FP'ing it, I didn't see it when I posted that comment and I thought it was getting more reaction and more important than some there.

SPK, love ya.

Caribdude

Caribdude February 7, 2009 - 9:24pm

tellya what i think

if anyone cares.
Yes the torture and war crimes charges will be kept alive and perhaps some European countries will do what they can, when they can...from what i got, our European friends are so much more informed and disgusted with America than almost anyone i've talked to...even Canadians heh - [maybe because "Old Europe" did not want us to follow in their footsteps or somthing]

I think the next generation of Americans are going to address it, as they are not as complicit as we are...c'mon now everyone, get real, it was done in our name and we let it happen.

It's situations like these that i realize the best reason for death in the world...so real progress can happen. Suppose people like Cheney lived forever? arghhhh!

1700: "Abolish slavery!"
1800: Woman's Suffrage!"
2000:"World Peace!"

bernadene February 8, 2009 - 12:04am

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So, US Liberal Bloggers, do you really want US torture investigated?

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