overthrow.com is reporting that we lost 112 people when the republican guards counterattacked in Najaf and Karbela. Definitly treat as suspect.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_news&Number=530211&t=-1

Sean-Paul: Would and/or the Phantom care to comment on the analysis of the Russian site?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news082.htm

John Papworth (of Maida Vale)'s Millennium Prayer

Lord make me an instrument of the war against evil,
Where there is vandalism against Thy creation
Let me campaign to stop it,
Where there is sabotage of Thy genetic ordainings,
Let me fight like hell to prevent it.

Where there is conspiracy to dominate Thy world with boardroom greed,
Let me join with others to wage an unremitting struggle to oppose it.
Where giant political forces combine with money makers and pocket liners
to assume control of community concerns such as education, health,
commerce, banks, law and order and work,
Let me be quick to affirm the overriding need for such matters to be restored
to local community life so that Thy moral laws may prevail.

Where there is passivity, deference and conformism to the powers of
darkness which are degrading society and its individual members, let me be
a powerful witness to oppose them.

Divine master, grant that I may not so much seek to live a quiet life as to be
in the vanguard of those who would enhance life, not so much to grab as to
give, not to evade my social obligations as to shoulder them, not to be afraid
of power as to be imbued with courage with others to control it for worthy ends.

For it is in striving to act with love that we affirm love, and in devoting ourselves to noble causes we are redeemed, and in giving ourselves utterly to the service of truth, love and beauty in shared, fully democratic communities we rise to the life immortal.

John Papworth
Fourth World Review no.97 - 1999 - john.papworth@btinternet.com

Pray for all victims of violence, please!

W. Raspberry's oped in todays Wash. Post is worth reading.

I'm looking forward to seeing people on Boston Common today(March 29)1130 to 100 rally and then a march.

nifty, George. I hope you saw my links to prayer sites in the mongo post from last night! This is a warm and fuzzy prayer, but a violation of Christian faith.

"For it is in striving to act with love that we affirm love, and in devoting ourselves to noble causes we are redeemed, and in giving ourselves utterly to the service of truth, love and beauty in shared, fully democratic communities we rise to the life immortal"

The first section is true about love, the second that we are redeemed is false, we are redeemed only by the blood of Jesus. The Rise to immortal life through that sacrifice of Jesus as well, not through fuly democratic communities.

So this might be a good prayer for a Unitarian, but not one that should be used by Christians, who believe in the power of Christ's sacrifice and rebirth.

Thanks for updating the SitMatp - one of the best I have seen. (much better than the initial ones)

It's been noticed that the 3rd ID supply line on the Sitmap directly corresponds to an oil pipeline running through an Najaf?

Iraqi oil infrastructure:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iraq_oil_2003.jpg

It is becoming more certain that the US and British invading forces will be turned back at Baghdad. The Iraqi people will defend it even more fiercely than the Russians at Stalingrad.
The US hopes for empire will be crushed and 80%(nonCows) of the world will have a mighty celebration.

Just to confirm many other articles about Google using censorship:

Google search engine as a weapon of war

http://www.bilderberg.org/infowar.htm

I am reminded of the May 1979 'Operations Manual' title 'Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars' as the military machine's obsession with controlling freedom of information shifts up a gear, grinding towards its Orwellian conclusion. One wonders what convoluted excuses are passed to those who are, as we speak, disappearing vast chunks of 'un-american' fact and opinion from the index of the world's most powerful and most trusted search engine.

Respected internet service - http://www.archive.org - which keeps copies of old web-pages, appears to have sold out to the American military and/or the forces of darkness too. Several important websites criticising the United States and with information about the occult simply do not appear. Archive dot org can be a useful resource but one must ask why the internet archive has a 'blind spot' in these crucial spiritual areas. The last internet archive for my - bilderberg.org - website is a year ago - before I put up information about George W Bush's occult activities. Anoher reason for grabbing the bilderberg website, with the help of an offline browser program, now.

Of all last Sunday's broadsheets, only the Independent had a front page story on the tremendous outpouring of sentiment in the U.S., Britain and across the world, against the most indefensible war yet waged by the dark anti-democratic forces that now control the West. Today the paper's website - http://www.independent.co.uk - was not there. "Please check the server name, and try again" said the bloodthirsty silent weapon.

An examination of Google is revealing: The string "During two years as an informer, Hassaine was asked to steal scores of documents from senior preachers at mosques in north London" which has been on the site for over eight months appears on my secret services page http://www.bilderberg.org/sis.htm - but was NOT listed by Google on 26th November 2002.

What a corker when Google let slip that anyone applying for a job with them hasd to have the highest level of U.S. military security clerarance! Suddenly the jovial 'front end' begins to look like Ronald MacDonald's evil grin.

Matthew Cutts, one of Googles 'top' software engineers, is the winner of more prizes for distorting the truth than any other programmer on planet earth. Could that be because he cut his teeth to fang-like points at the National Security Agency. But is Cutts a misguided geek? plain stupid? or a CIA supremacist? You choose. None of the posssibilities are very appealing. Although unavailable for interview (his glowing CV has disappeared though I have put a saved version up on my page http://www.bilderberg.org/legal.htm#CV ) Cutts was heard to say "We've gotta kill all the Muslims before they kill us". Give that boy a $20,000 prize!

Please pray for all victims, thanks.
(Tony, I will get back to you, thanks!)

The Iraqi,s must love this site, who need,s
intelligence, you mob are giving it to them for free

The Russian site is suspect, highly, and read some back posts, there. But, their analysis, I thought, of how to stop American forces (using Russian forces) was pretty good, but I'm no analyst. My guess is that the Iraqis were watching Somalia, Chechnya, and Yugoslavia. It's pretty clear that, currently, the United States cannot be sure of a relatively easy or even moderate victory unless it can assure that it can "cleanse the air," to use Galland's term.

Tony, I missed your post last night, but not for lack of trying.
Please repost or send me a copy.
I'm not claiming the Millenium prayer is truly Christian, and I agree with your analysis!

Please pray for all victims! Thanks!

George

saxien, surely you don't believe I... uh, they don't have better sources than this site do you?

The Iraqi,s must love this site, who need,s
intelligence, you mob are giving it to them for free

So it is now un-american to publish news too?

George, here are a few links, putting them here as well as in the last post (with 552 posts in it) since this one is newer, and you may check it instead.

http://www.cls.org.au/Prayerpoints.htm
http://www.bethany.com/profiles/p_code/509.html
http://www.praycal.org/
http://www.beliefnet.com/index/index_60.html
http://www.ifapray.org/prayercalendars.html

These all have good prayers and prayer info. Many Christian groups are united in Christ, but divided over whether this is a just war, so don't be surprised to see prayers towards any or all outcomes of how best to resolve this conflict when visiting these sites.

>this might be a good prayer for a Unitarian,

Sorry, Tony, but Unitarians don't speak of "redemption," or of "life immortal." This "prayer" is most definitely not Unitarian.

Where is this 30,000 forces in Northern Iraq coming from?

Saxien...
Yes, Sean-Paul is receiving direct, highly classified intelligence from around the world and dissemminating it directly to the Iraq regimes. Are you serious?

Where is this 30,000 forces in Northern Iraq coming from?

If there are so much troops in Northern Iraq I'll bet most of them come through Turkey or are Kurdish Peshmerga.
You can't airlift so much troops so fast.

Thanks, renardthe fox

That's good to know. I haven't been in a Unitarian church in over 10 years, so I am not sure what exactly they believe now, or how they are practicing their beliefs. I didn't mean to ascribe this specifically to them, just that for folks who are more strictly Bible based in their beliefs, the prayer would not be a good one for them to use, even if they believe the rest of it.

I appreciate your feedback!

Yes it is unamerican and unpatriotic to publish or say anything that the Bush cartel has not authorizes as today's message. Even high-ranking generals must speak in accordance with these principles.
We are rapidly becoming a fascist state.
Total unity of the state, press, and industry.

Thanks, Tony, my prayers have been answered!

Regarding prayer - I think it's a hollywoodesque distortion to say "say your prayers" in films only when you are about to get 'wasted'.

But for some of the Agonist members, I would say that prayer applies to every phase of life, incl. death.

Please pray for all victims of this violent conflict! Thanks!

If the government didnt want this info on this site to get out they would stop it. No more or less info is being put out on here then any cable news network. I worked in intel for years (101st) and the one think I have always noticed is that no matter what people think they know they only really know only what the government allows them to know.

Sorry fella,s, I,m an Aussie,and very pragmatic, just like our SAS boy,s, we keep mum about all this stuff, and hopefully we haven,t lost any guy,s yet, (I hope), and if we did, nobody would know about it.

GashPrex: Where is this 30,000 forces in Northern Iraq coming from?

Germany, but tell anyone.

Germany, but tell anyone.

Yeah... that should have said "Germany, but DON'T tell anyone."

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/5510697.htm

War with Iraq puts U.S. 'in a very dangerous situation'

James A. Miller is a cultural geographer at Clemson University. He specializes in the Middle East and has served as a foreign service officer in North Africa.

Please pray for all victims of this conflict!
Thanks!

"The US hopes for empire will be crushed and 80%(nonCows) of the world will have a mighty celebration."

What will rise up to fill the vacuum left by the USA?

-Russia
-China
-Islamism
-Europe

Take your pick.

Then, indicate how (1) one of those four running the world or (2) two to four of those entities clashing to run the world would be better than the current, unipolar situation.

And that's running in a South Carolina newspaper? Holy sheeyit. This war is going worse for Bush than we thought, maybe?

To add to my post about James.A.Miller, in todays (?) Baltimore Sun, Sean Shane has an article (can't find a hyperlink) about Iraqi resistance in much greater detail.

You SAS guys will appreciate my black humor:
he's a bastard, but he's our bastard!

Please pray for all victims of this conflict!
Thanks!

Sean-Paul...

Would it be possible to set up (or have a dedicated reader perform it for you) a bulletin board for posters who have theological discussions, "Good morning Sean,"--"Good evening Sean" comments, poetry and other things tying up much needed space (good intentioned though they might be)? It would seem this forum is slowly changing from a clearinghouse of military information and related items to a place for general discussion about any and everything. Not trying to denigrate anyone specifically...just a thought.

Things to come:

Hussein and his people are telling us the truth. Believe everything they say.

Bush and his people are lying. Don't believe anything they say. Believe exactly the opposite.

The press, including Agonist, is reporting both sides fairly.

http://news.chinatimes.com.tw/Chinatimes/index/index/#here

jmon,

Don't believe the hype. Baghdad will be more difficult, because a greater percentage of the population are supporters of Saddam, but the U.S. won't just go waltzing into the city. If they see that a large portion of the citizens take up arms and fight, they will be able to justify turning their guns on them.

In fact, one of the things helping the Iraqi army further South is that so many of the folks don't support them, so they have plenty of cover, plenty of people to threaten and coerce, and plenty to run out and do interference.

If the population of Baghdad is speaking the truth, and not just doing it because Saddam and his merry band are listening in, then it will actually be easier for the U.S. military to determine their targets.

It seems many folks who are not supporters of Saddam have already left the city, as reports noted before the conflict was a few hours old. Plus the U.S. will adapt to the hard lessons they have learned in the South, and find ways to hit and run and draw forces out.

War is tragic, but there is strategy and adaptation involved. I saw it for years as a missionary in Guatemala when the right wing dictatorship was fighting the leftist guerillas.

Those were the days, machine gun in your back at the bank, courtesy of the government, pistol to your head in the mountains, courtesy of the leftists. There was plenty of blame for both sides, but valid concerns as well that each needed addressed. Yes, a war did bring that to conclusion, and it took 10 years.

Why support this one then? Because it took that long when neither side had a significant advantage, and a slow war that moves back and forth over and over again across the same towns and villages just destroys the civilian population.

The military took less of the brunt, as did the guerillas, the civilians were caught in the middle over and over again.

I was not for this war starting when it did, I believed more diplomacy was in order, but now that we are in, I believe it must be finished, or the death toll will be higher for everyone, especially the Iraqi citizens. There has been enough damage to the central government and army, and enough strengthening of the Kurds, and significant numbers (15,000) expatriated Shiite Iraqis just across the border in Iran, to make for one hell of a civil war.

Iraq is going to need tightened borders if it is to have any chance for peaceful self determination in the future. It is also going to need a cooling off period, as retribution will be on many minds.

I don't like it, but I believe it is unfortunately necessary at this point. A greater calamity to the bulk of Iraqi's will occur if we pull out now. In fact, it is likely both Turkey and Iran would exploit the situation, either taking some border territory, or just continuing to feed the unrest, so as to strengthen their positions.

It sucks no matter how you deal with it from here on out, but deal with it we must.

Hi John,

Yep, I am serious, this site is the most up to date thing you can get, that,s why were all here I guess, but, maybe just a tad tooo update, you know the old saying--words speak louder than action sometimes

Things to come:

CNN.

Watch their faces: they are getting scared.

>Thanks . . . I haven't been in a Unitarian church in over 10 years, so I am not sure what exactly they believe now . . .

You're welcome, Tony. Easy enough to find: www.uua.org.

Sean,

Question: Yes or No.

Is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God?

*troll warning*
Q - why is public lying so completely accepted in the middle east - the more outrageous the better. also, why do arabs refuse to self-critisize? is there something in the koran about this?

0:37 EST According to a Washington Post-ABC News random telephone survey of 508 people conducted March 28, 74 percent of those surveyed supported the U.S. decision to go to war and 24 percent opposed the war, down from 26 percent a week earlier. The proportion of respondents expecting a "significant number of additional U.S. casualties" rose sharply to 82 percent from 37 percent a week earlier, and 57 percent polled said the war would last "months" -- compared to 37 percent a week earlier -- and 23 percent said it would last "weeks," down from 31 percent a week ago.

508? This isn't even a proper sample. Maybe with 10 000 people it starts to get useful.

Things to come:

Every Iraqi is telling us the full and complete truth.

Believe them.

Yassir Arafat too.

In other news, the doctor who first determined that the mystery illness SARS was turning into an epidemic, has died of the disease:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Mystery-Illness-Doctor-Dies.html

Greetings to all lefties,
Sadly your little fervent hopes that the U.S. will become unhinged in this war aren't
going to come true. I know that kills you
and for that I smile....

Sorry, it's Scott Shane (Baltimore Sun) "Why Are They Resisting?".

Reply to Shawn Pickrell: unipolar - the exact problem with the USA - re: the Monroe Doctrine, then Jimmy Carter's statement about the Persian Gulf, etc. Just saying something doesn't mean it's true.

Please, pray for all victims of this violent conflict!

Man, I go away for a couple days and the comments fill up with loons.

Larouche for President!

The map rules though. The best I've seen anywhere.

508? This isn't even a proper sample. Maybe with 10 000 people it starts to get useful.

Come on, Haider.

This is how phone polling works. The samples are small. This surprises you?

Welcome to the world.

Please pray for all the victims of communism and dictatorships and the left wing loony toons that act as their appeasers....

john,

Hear, Hear! If I wanted left/right slamming, I would go to the Yahoo boards. If anyone has read Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" they would understand why Bush's attempts to turn the US into a theocracy is making me very nervous. Sorry to add to the off topic commentary, but in the beginning, the comments here were just as informative as the main page.

The price of fame, I guess, eh?

Things to come:

Believe.

No matter what the US does, we will not win. It is too late.

No matter Iraq does, they will not lose.

Houston, we have a problem.

The US can claim this is a just war to liberate Iraqis, overthrow Saddam or rid the country of WMD. However, it is clear that the Iraqis and approx. 1 billion muslims view this war as an attack on their people, their natural resources and their way of life. Where exactly is the exit strategy here?

This "cakewalk" looks like it may become clusterf---.

It's a Saturday, and a slowish news day. I don't see any increase in cranks here, just a decrease of informative posters, who are probably out shopping or washing the car.

Things to come:

D-Day.

Hussein's day is just beginning.

Sean-Paul:

Any news on the new forum software? Any chance you'll consider Slash?

The looniness is in desperate need of filtering.

The comments are quickly losing their appeal.

Any news on the new forum software? Any chance you'll consider Slash?

The looniness is in desperate need of filtering.

The comments are quickly losing their appeal.

With popularity and exposion comes stupidity.

Haider, surprisingly, a random sample properly selected can be very small compared to the population it represents and give good information.

That said, its good not to trust statistics if your not a statistician and as a statistician you don't trust statistics until you've been able to evaluate the methodology used in the stats.

Things to come:

Soon.

Don't waste time researching anything. No Urls!

We don't need to search for the Truth any more: it is unfolding before our eyes.

The Day of the LORD is at hand.

No shit.

The current USS San Juan is another attack submarine. The AckAck cruiser you describe was the last ship to carry that name for the US Navy, in WWII.

That being said...keep up the great work!!! I don't even watch the news, thanks to you.

Saddam Hussien has awarded the 2 medals of honor posthumously to the 2 sucicide car bombers that they claim killed 11 serviceman(US claims 4)

Said that this is just the begining.

Time for the US to call in Israel

Sean:

I'm not saying you need to censor or ban the comments -- I'm suggesting all you need to do is implement software that *filters* comments.

Cripes, don't ban anyone -- for goddsake don't get some "assistant" to willy-nilly delete stuff. That makes no sense.

All you need is *software*. Humans in charge of forums tend to, um, become a bit overzealous. Everyone ought to be able to express their opinions -- but the community simply needs a quick and painless way to filter out stuff they'd prefer not to read.

Please, no assistants. Don't ruin the good thing.

Update

Iraq TV Names Suicide Bomber, Says Just Beginning
Sat March 29, 2003 10:42 AM ET
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi state television on Saturday named the man behind a suicide bomb attack on a U.S. checkpoint which the U.S. military said had killed four of its soldiers.
The television said President Saddam Hussein had awarded the man, Ali Hammadi al-Namani, two posthumous medals.

It said the attack, which took place earlier on Saturday, had killed 11 U.S. soldiers and destroyed two tanks and two armored personnel carriers.

"This is the blessed beginning on the road of sacrifice and martyrdom to inflict on them what they did not expect," the television announcer said.

Haider, surprisingly, a random sample properly selected can be very small compared to the population it represents and give good information.

That said, its good not to trust statistics if your not a statistician and as a statistician you don't trust statistics until you've been able to evaluate the methodology used in the stats.

The last few polls of European elections all turned out completly wrong. Most of them relied on samples of 500 - 2000 people. This samples are simply too small to be useful. IIRC the blurring with 500 people lies between 6 and 10 %.

Perhaps there should be a rule against excessive posting without providing links to relevant articles or new news.

It said the attack, which took place earlier on Saturday, had killed 11 U.S. soldiers and destroyed two tanks and two armored personnel carriers.

What was he using? Some kind of tactical nuke? ;-)

That in no way can be considered a terrorist attack. Lose your video game sense of war, any Us Military person or base, US government building anywhere in the world is a legitimate target for Iraqis

Most of them relied on samples of 500 - 2000 people. This samples are simply too small to be useful. IIRC the blurring with 500 people lies between 6 and 10 %.

Right, Haider.

But show me current polling that uses large sample numbers. They don't exist, and they're certainly no more statistically accurate than the smaller number.

Polls always operate under time and manpower constraints. It makes no sense to get, say, 10,000 people when you know the extra effort won't increase accuracy.

Besides, the polls are *snapshots*. They're not -- and never are -- meant to be definitive. They're simply slices in time. Over time, they'll change.

...we are redeemed only by the blood of Jesus

Amen.

Decide this day whom you will serve.

This can't be good...

Ankara Welcomes Iranian Offer

Ankara, TURKEY, March 29, 2003 - Brought to the agenda by Iran, an offer of forming a consultation mechanism among Syria, Iran, and Turkey regarding the future of northern Iraq was approached by Ankara with a positive attitude.

Deputy Spokesman of Foreign Affairs Huseyin Dirioz evaluating the press briefing yesterday said: "Setting up a common mechanism by the regional countries is natural and useful. We will reach a conclusion after evaluating the offer in detail." Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul had conveyed a similar message to the president of Syria, Bessar Asad when Gul was paying a visit to this country.

Zaman / Ankara / TURKEY

From the conservative (Murdoch?) UK Times

Baghdad will be near impossible to conquer

The author makes devistating analogies to previous urban sieges, but this was especially chilling:

"Students of this strategy need look no further than the Red Army commissars in Antony Beevor’s Stalingrad. They murdered an entire division of their own side to make them fight, but they won."

Saddam = Stalin? Go read Mark Bowden's "Tales of the Tyrant" at the Atlantic site.

On the SitMap,

AV puts a suspected Mech Infantry CORPS (!) out west on the way to Baghdad??

I must have missed the source. Any news on this?

What was he using? Some kind of tactical nuke? ;-)

Maybe one of the MOABs got lost on the way to Baghdad...

Haider, I'm not sure what you mean by blurring, but the probability of error is based on more than just sample size. You can only get the rate of error if you also know the underlying assumptions used in the polling and analysis.

That is why the probability of error is often given along with the sample size.

Perhaps there should be a rule against excessive posting without providing links to relevant articles or new news.

Why do people always want more *rules?*

Just post. Post whatever. Some is noise, some is signal. But we don't need *rules* -- we just need a way to thread and filter according to what we want to read.

Some folks like to read the back-and-forth between posters. I do -- sometimes.

Some folks like to think the Day of Judgment is at hand. Well, maybe it is. But there's no reason to censor those posts. They're weird, but they don't need censoring -- just filtering.

It's pretty simple. MoveableType is nice, but it doesn't really help with these sorts of haywire discussions.

Hey, lucky

The Arabs don't exactly corner the market in lying. It seems to be a human condition that passes beyond race, creed, color, or nationality.

When things are tough, when you need to boost moral, hey just lie a little, it's called... Propaganda!

Used by all sides during war. Yep, the U.S. paints a bit too chipper a picture, but the Iraqis like to tell really big whoppers. They lie so much and so often, they can't be sure of the truth unless they really blow the lies out of proportion!

I'm joking, but I'm not. It's almost funny, they lie so badly, but it's not funny because a good portion of the Arab world hates us so much, they'll believe it, even though they know it's a lie. That's right, they will be able to tell it's a lie, but their emotions will allow them to convince themselves it's the truth. Happens all the time.

It isn't this president that started the aggravation with the Arabs, it is almost every administration, both Democrat or Republican going back 30 years. We have been building a military presence in many of their countries, even though the bulk of the populace does not want us there. We needed the bases during the first Gulf War, but there was really no justification for having so many between the wars. We just riled most of them Arabs up, along with other Muslims.

We also didn't realize it was in our best security interests to really push Israel into a settlement with Palestine. We shouldn't give it to them as long as they keep bombing Israel, but the Israeli's should at least get out of the Palestinian areas, where they have built settlements.

Over 67% of Israeli's agree with that position, believing it could help solve the issue, and that's with them fairly right wing at the moment because of all the bombings.

If Muslims get the same right to practice their faith as I do to practice mine, perhaps they will start spreading it by their words and good deeds, rather than the sword. We don't know, but we really haven't given them a chance.

Since we support their governments, we contribute to keeping them in power, even though those governments are fairweather friends, who will act as if they agree with the radicalism of their populace when it is expedient, but repress the hell out of them when the spotlight is not on them.

Most of the Arab governments over there are opposed by most of their citizens, as they are in power for themselves only, and impoverishing their citizens. Saddam is not particularly unique in that part of the world! They resent us because we put bases on their land, and cozy up to the leaders they detest.

They weren't as radical 30 years ago, but years of poverty and underrepresentation have polarized them, and they have been baited by the hate mongers in their society.

We aren't THE problem, but we are part of it, so don't get too snooty about our great American $$$ machine.

Sean,

Don't worry about the comments. Leave them alone.

Don't be distracted. Keep working.

Believe me.

I don't know much about statistics, but I was under the impression that a sample of something like 413 was all that was needed, according to stats norms, to produce legitimate results. It doesn't seem like many people to me, but I'm willing to give the stats people the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers

ps. warnings about some sort of impending armageddon and the return of Jesus strike me, at least, as pointless, unnecessary and a waste of space.

Ughh, worthwhile comments down below 10%. Please get Slash.

Ughh, worthwhile comments down below 10%. Please get Slash.

Yes. There are many, many people who will gladly donate their time to help you get it set up and running.

Filters are needed here.

Things to come:

Pray for your soldiers.

When I discovered this sites about a week ago I was thrilled with Sean-Paul's work and equally stunned with the calm intelligence of the comment boards. I am still thrilled with Sean-Paul's work.

"Students of this strategy need look no further than the Red Army commissars in Antony Beevor’s Stalingrad. They murdered an entire division of their own side to make them fight, but they won."

Yes, but the Red Army won only because there was a big army, which surrounded the German soldier in the city, who had conquered Stalingrad. The Iraqis won't have such an army. They only have the advantage, that the US/UK will not ruthlessly kill civilians like the German did, and that they want the city intact, unlike the Germans.

According to a norwegian newspaper, only 4 of the 23 official british casualties have been killed in combat. The rest have died from friendly fire or accidents.

Are those silkworm missiles a threat to shipping in the gulf. Can they hit ships.

Things to come:

Watch.

It's starting.

How can they, the so-called Iraqi terrorists, be put on trial for war crimes when they blow themselves up? Is gwb that much of a moron?

Things to come:

Listen.

Our brave soldiers are doing their best, but they're getting scared.

2 questions about the missile in Kuwait. I've not observed any answers these questions, can anyone help?

1. why would a Chinese missile have writing in English on it?

2. how could the Iraqis launch a missile from the sea? Aren't the coalition troops keeping an eye on it?

Thanks!

Whats with the cryptic messages?

*troll warning*
Q - why is public lying so completely accepted in the middle east - the more outrageous the better. also, why do arabs refuse to self-critisize? is there something in the koran about this?

Can't resist. Public lying is NOT "completely accepted in the middle east." I've spent a lot of time all over the Middle East, and have had some very nuanced political discussions with people there and seen as much dissention as can be found here (maybe even more). To be sure, certain kinds of lies and exaggerations are accepted at face value--but that's the same anywhere in the world.

If you want to get a sense of some Middle Eastern self-examination and self-criticism, I suggest that you look at last year's UNDP Arab Human Development Report .

http://www.beliefnet.com/milestones/commemoration.asp?milestoneTypeID=6&milestoneID=42657

A site specifically dedicated to prayers for all victims during this violent conflict.

Please pray for all victims of this conflict!

Oops. URL got lost.
http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/

If you want to get a sense of some Middle Eastern self-examination and self-criticism, I suggest that you look at last year's UNDP Arab Human Development Report.

Which, IIRC, was pretty grim, no?

Do you have a link to the report?

Whatever happened to silent prayer?

I looked at the Russian "analysis". Blatantly prejudiced and therefore worthless in my opinion. It gives itself away by claiming that the U.S. was provided large amounts of information by their spies infiltrated throughout the U.N. inspection teams. One big lie that big is enough to discredit the whole thing in my opinion.

baffled111:

CNN is reporting that the missile was a Chinese Seersucker, adapted by Iraq (who has renamed it Faw 200). It can be fired from land, and most reports indicate that it was fired from the Al Faw-peninsula.

Things to come:

Baghdad and Jerusalem are running on the same time line.

Hussein and God, too.

Personal World Clock
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/personal.html

fired from the Al Faw-peninsula.

The Al-Faw peninsula, which was 'liberated' three times now? Which is completly under british control according to CENTCOM? Odd.

Which, IIRC, was pretty grim, no?

Yup. Spreads the (copious) blame around. My point, though, is that the belief that self-criticism is absent from Middle East politics is not on firm footing.

The Al-Faw peninsula, which was 'liberated' three times now? Which is completly under british control according to CENTCOM? Odd

Yes, I found it odd, too. But still, given the range of the missile, it must have been launched from somewhere in Southern Iraq.

I looked at the Russian "analysis". Blatantly prejudiced and therefore worthless in my opinion. It gives itself away by claiming that the U.S. was provided large amounts of information by their spies infiltrated throughout the U.N. inspection teams. One big lie that big is enough to discredit the whole thing in my opinion.

Look for "Venik" in the Usenet (through) Google-Groups. You will notice that he is seen as troll in most NG. While he does only tranlate the site, I would not trust this reports too much. Just another biased source like CENTCOM and Iraqi press briefings.

Answers:

1. why would a Chinese missile have writing in English on it?

Outside of China, Chinese is little spoken. English is more widely known, and so is used in the export version of many weapon systems, even those produced in non-English speaking countries.

2. how could the Iraqis launch a missile from the sea? Aren't the coalition troops keeping an eye on it?

It's a big sea and could be a little boat.

-Terry

Things to come:

Just in from a trusted source:

48 hours.

Get ready. You have some time.

Link to UNDP Arab Human Development Report 2002:

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/CompleteEnglish.pdf

PDF, 180 pp.

The post that is about the ships going through the canal needs to be checked again. I served on board the USS Pittsburg whos hull number is SSN 720. Also the Newport News is another SSN that is stationed at the same naval base (Groton CT). I am not one hundred percent sure but I believe that every ship listed in that post is a Submarine.

tony,

thanks for the response. I guess I was just thinking it's some kind of cultural/religious thing. I mean if public officials in the west are found to be absolute outright lying - they are pretty much in trouble, but it seems not in the middle east. It just frustrating because if you are living in that there it's got to be so much harder to learn the truth. Are you saying once people are able to live without oppression, the 'lying' phenomenon will drop off and acceptance of personal responsibility and honor will be more common? I think that makes sense, but it would be better for people to have the best attiudes regardless of their situation. I think that is what mlk preached? anyway - I was reading some history lately. What happened with Nasser in egypt - seems like that was a chance for freedom of some type to spread in the middle east..

"The Al-Faw peninsula, which was 'liberated' three times now? Which is completly under british control according to CENTCOM? Odd"

I find nothing odd about that. Its impossible to account for 100% of the missle launchers in southern iraq in 8 days.

Peter Shriner:

Your repitition is detracting from whatever message you have.

saxien--

The Iraqi,s must love this site, who need,s
intelligence, you mob are giving it to them for free

Judging by your erratic use of punctuation, *you* surely run no risk of giving away intelligence.

As most information is culled from publicly available sources, this accusation is daft as best.

This is somewhat off-topic and I hope it is an ok question for this forum.
One present arguement during briefings is whether or not this administration presented our present military situation as a 'cakewalk.' I am curious to know, and can anyone tell me, if the Fox and Clear Channel people had been predicting an easy time for our military during this conflict. Did they prophesize a quick little skirmish and then liberation? Thanking you in advance...

Things to come:

Words and pictures.

Agonist and CNN.

Can anyone give a site to the 30,000 coalition troops in N. Iraq post at 09:28 EST?

Considering this is 30 times what the media has previously reported, it seems worth referencing....

the seersucker missiles do infact have some "english" writing on them, at least the iraqi/iranian version of it. Usually it is a serial number similar to "HY-2 310905". HY-2 is the chinese name for the missile, and the 6 digit number is the missile's serial number.
the HY-2 is the same missile that have been named "seersucker by western intelligence, it is really just a chinese, upgraded version of the russian SS-N-2 styx missile.
The more famous silkworm is the HY-1 missile, but the media has been calling the HY-2's as well.

Things to come:

The Russians are telling us the truth too.

John, let me get back to you on that. I have access to Fox transcripts and I have been wanting to do a little "analysis" ever since the backtracking on the "cakewalk" started.

Where did the 'news' comments go?!

One suggestion,

One comment section for news related items
One comment section for discussion, prayers, hellos/good-evenings, etc.

Incredible site S-P, and just a suggestion.

PHewson

Things to come:

Listen to our soldiers and officers on the front lines.

They know.

Info on Newport News is from 1970. Here is a more current link on information about the NN.

http://www.subnet.com/fleet/ssn750.htm

Things to come:

Distractions.

Avoid them. Focus.

Things to come:

The Iraqis.

Truthful, brave, and unstoppable.

Things to come:

Newspeak.

Missing reporters have not been killed or captured by the Iraqis.

Some have been exiled, though.

here is kind of an answer to my own question. I think this site has lots of good articles. the title is 'why do they hate us?'

http://www.msnbc.com/news/639057.asp

NASSER BELIEVED that Arab politics needed to be fired by modern ideas like self-determination, socialism and Arab unity. And before oil money turned the gulf states into golden geese, Egypt was the undisputed leader of the Middle East. So Nasser’s vision became the region’s. Every regime, from the Baathists in Syria and Iraq to the conservative monarchies of the gulf, spoke in similar terms and tones. It wasn’t that they were just aping Nasser. The Middle East desperately wanted to become modern.
It failed. For all their energy these regimes chose bad ideas and implemented them in worse ways. Socialism produced bureaucracy and stagnation. Rather than adjusting to the failures of central planning, the economies never really moved on. The republics calcified into dictatorships. Third World “nonalignment” became pro-Soviet propaganda. Arab unity cracked and crumbled as countries discovered their own national interests and opportunities. Worst of all, Israel humiliated the Arabs in the wars of 1967 and 1973. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, he destroyed the last remnants of the Arab idea.

But still this seems pretty thin on explaining how the 'collapse' happened. does anyone have links for more historical info? thx.

Things to come:

Thought for the Day.

You shall know the Truth, and it shall set you free.

Things to come:

You will be posting somewhere else.

USS Boise - http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08764.htm

Toledo - http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08769.htm

Thank you. Great job by the way, been reading since first day of this war. Youre doing awesome.

I've noticed something, first quite a bit of the posts were bash the US now we seem to have turned on the posts to bash.

Also I am no statician but it seems like a GOODrandom sampling of 500 would be a better guage than a bad or mediocre sampling of 10,000?? For example 250 in New York city and 250 in say the midwest would be a better sampling than say 10,000 of the people who manufacture tanks and airplanes?? Just my thought.

Also I got this from a post on the BBC message board, just supposing all of these things happen to be true, and what was said had been done had been done, what would a solution be??
Many anti-war demonstrators assert that they do not support Saddam. Yet, to avoid this war is to leave him in power. It seems there is little doubt Saddam is a murderous tyrant with territorial ambitions (Kuwait and Iran come to mind) who cares not at all for world opinion or for his own people. He is a vocal and financial supporter of international terrorism, an avid seeker of weapons of mass destruction, and real threat to his neighbors and to the rest of the world (not to mention his own population).

Diplomacy has not worked-- we have 12 years of evidence to support that fact.

So my question is-- what are you going to do about him? How do you deal with a tyrant like that, in an age when WMD are rapidly becoming more available to all?

I invite serious, non-hysterical replies, please... I would really love to hear a logical reply to this argument.

Also I'm sorry but I read in the Jordanian paper last night that Saudi Arabia is between a rock and a hard place, they are where they are today because of the US but some of their people don't realize that and are out for blood. I still have the feeling this is the case in many Arab countries. I know for a fact when the military personell were given shore leave previous to this in an Arabian country they were thanked for what the US had done in Kuwait. And it didn't just happen once.

re. weapons inspectors and spying, in 1999 the new york times and washington post reported that "United States officials said today that American spies had worked undercover on teams of United Nations arms inspectors".

there is a discussion and links to the stories at

http://www.fair.org/activism/unscom-history.html

BTW has everyone who used to post such cool and thoughtful news/links/comments gone to another board?

Things to come:

Jack Chick learns to blog.

For my money Shriner is a plant, probably from the same folks who are making aljazeera.net inaccessible.

Terry...
The BBC post you refer to...my very first reaction would be: That many of the Pro-war community have said that the past 12 years of effort have been trivial, and unresolving. I would say from that point, to the point of all-out-war, is a gigantic jump that would appear to leave out the possibility of any alternatives. I'll venture there are many on this board alone who could supply countless options that could have been taken before this major conflagration began. ...just my opinion.

Jack Chick learns to blog.

$DEITY forbid.

Peter Shriner ~~~~

Who's side are you on anyway? You seem to be one of those America bashers who enjoy your American freedom enough to hate America. I have noticed that nobody seems to comment on your posts.

But still this seems pretty thin on explaining how the 'collapse' happened. does anyone have links for more historical info? thx. Posted by lucky

IMHO, I recommend a short book called What went Wrong? by Bernard Lewis as a starting point in analysing the failure of modern Arab states. It takes a very logn view, focusing on the Turkish Empire and differences in the evolution of Christianity and Islam vis a vis society and the state.

In reply to information about the Aeronautics.ru site, the site itself looks to be a front. The reports are suspiciously like select clips from the GRU daily briefings. I think it should be noted that many countries are expressing their dismay and anger by letting information slip out that normally would not slip out. The complete extent of the briefings and what is released to say, iraqwar.ru are not easily known. But, there is no doubt whatsoever that Mr. Putin, is quite upset by the war.

What is more dangerous than a release of information of a quite damaging nature over the net from skillful intelligence gathering sources such as the GRU, and the FIS, is the incredible propagandizing and sanitization of news going to the American public. This leads to false assumptions and false conclusions. I urge every American to use alternative news clip sites like Alternet, The Agonist, Buzzflash, and not to hesitate to use international sites (and this should include Moscow Times, and Pravda) to round out their information BEFORE jumping to conclusions about success or failure in this current situation. I hope this helps answer the question.

PLEASE, BEWARE OF PROPAGANDA!

Would the loonies in the crowd -- and I believe you are quite capable of self-identification -- please have the common decency to go away?

The comments section was, a half-dozen days ago, an information-packed archive of excellent news sources.

The comments section is, now, a near-useless thread of bickering, proselytizing, and just plain creepiness. GO AWAY! Let the rest of us have back what was a valuable informational resource.

colereux thanks, but there are 2 books by him:
What Went Wrong: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East
and
What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response
I suppose they are both good reading.

what a great board..i hope the aformentioned thoughtful posters will begin posting again. My questions: Why haven't we found WMD yet? What will we do if we don't? How will the the military-industrial-complex we've become (that an exiting Eisenhower warned against) justify this (I love your word John) conflagration?

Colereux,

I would also suggest reading Edward Said's Orientalism and/or Culture and Imperialism. Either of these titles could assist in finding weaknesses in Lewis's arguments.

to Peter Shriner :

Your website is awesome.

Follow-up to P.Hewson's post re different sections for news related items, prayers, hellos, goodbyes, etc. :

You might want to consider installing a Discus Board.

John
"Terry...
The BBC post you refer to...my very first reaction would be: That many of the Pro-war community have said that the past 12 years of effort have been trivial, and unresolving. I would say from that point, to the point of all-out-war, is a gigantic jump that would appear to leave out the possibility of any alternatives. I'll venture there are many on this board alone who could supply countless options that could have been taken before this major conflagration began. ...just my opinion."

I'm not sure but we gave him countless options didn't we?? I'm not actually arguing because I didn't pay that much attention, just seemed like everytime we turned around we were doing this with Saddam or that, will you do that, can the inspectors come, can they come back, etc. etc. etc. I believe we tried sanctions and are being lambasted (sp?) for that, saying we made Iraq the poor country it is today, while others brag on what Saddam has done for the country such as free college?

(the following is an analogy, I am not advocating corporal punishment of children)

To me the current world situation reminds me of a Mother and Father and child visiting the Fathers parents. Child is a brat, big whiny mean brat, Mother says don't do that don't do this, you will have to sit in corner, finally brat child injures other sibling and then spews off at Mama. Mama says OK, that's it and some form of punishment is enacted or Mama goes home and removes child from environment. Now Grandparents don't really like Mama and are jealous of the attention their son shows her (don't like child either and are afraid of him but that is beside the point) and are looking for any excuse to cause trouble in the marriage, so what do they do?? They pull Daddy aside and tell him how ashamed they are Mama can't control children not a fit mother and how Mama is a child abuser. Now if Daddy has any backbone he supports Mama. If Daddy has no backbone and he wants that inheritance really bad he goes home and tells his wife off, situation becomes unbearable and eventually little Johnny goes to reform school and gasses his schoolmates.
Simplistic and propaganda ridden?? Seems to me to be basic human psychology and drama??
Mama is US and UK, Daddy is all those countries that we "thought" were our friends and we helped for years as spouses (friends) should help each other. Won't mention names. Grandparents were some of the Arabian people, some of the Russian people, that nutcase in N. Korea, etc. etc. Saw a time to get their licks in and make trouble to their advantage, maybe get a new daughter in law but surprise the next one is going to be a tramp and divorce their son and take his inheritance and then Daddy WILL have problems. Of course little Johnny translates into little Saddam. Inheritance would be oil. Is this an implausable scenario??
My basic premise is we have tried and tried, Saddam is becomming a danger to all the children. Now say Mama has been the victim of a brother that acts just like brat-child. Her parents (world) ignored him (Osama) until he finally phsycially attacked the other siblings. (9/11) and did much damage, almost burned the house down to boot. Now he is on the run from the law but everyone (Daddy included) would just as soon forget that this happened because that means little Johnny is likely to do the same thing and he REALLY wants that inheritance. The current emphasis on child abuse ( abuse against Saddam or Iraq abuse by invasion) doesn't help matters. As we all know many cases of actual child abuse are swept under the rug (Saddams little games) while others are trumped up or nonexistant (abuse against Saddam ).

I'm not avoiding replies, real life interfesres with agonist, drat!! They say we have no food in house??

Terry...

Most of your statements are views which are frankly not shared by a majority of world opinion.

"It seems there is little doubt Saddam is a murderous tyrant with territorial ambitions (Kuwait and Iran come to mind)"

The US has vastly overplayed the threat represented by Saddam Hussein. He is certainly no direct threat to the US and not even to his neighbors. Iran, Koweit or Saudi Arabia are no longer afraid of Saddam. His offensive capability has been largely eliminated. he no longer has an air force. He is more of an embarassment to them than anything else. Iran and even kowait certainly did not ask for the US to intervene in this war on their behalf.

As far as him being a murderous tyrant, so are litterally dozens of despots around the world, many more menacing than Sadam. There is actually no case for invasion on the basis of some imminent fear of genocide as in Kosovo. The Kurds have actually been operating under relative autonomy for the past 12 years and were under no threat. The Kurds are actually more worried about their neighbors to the North, the Turks than they are about the Iraquis at this time. The Shiites in the South are certainly not oppressed by Saddam. It is simply ridiculous to believe that they are resisting the US invasion because they have a gun to their heads. They have a strong sense of Iraqui-Arab nationalism despite poor living conditions under 12 years of UN sanctions. The Iraqui Shiites never changed sides in the lengthy and bloody Iran-Iraq war despite the fact they were fighting against other Shiites. Arab nationalism was a stronger factor than religious background.

In short remving an unsavory character is not a basis for invading a sovereign country.

"Diplomacy has not worked-- we have 12 years of evidence to support that fact."

This sounds like Colin Powell at the UN. again, most people around the world disagree with that. Saddam has been fully contained and his regime represents very little threat to any other country. There is extensive evidence that his nuclear program which was shown to have been eliminated by the UN inpsctors in 1998 was never reactivated. While he may retain some chemicals, he has no real delivery capability. His missiles are a joke and more likely to explode on launch or mid-air than reach their destination. If he had any serious delivery capability he would certainly have shown it by now even if it was to deliver conventional explosives on the US forces.

Leaving inspection teams on the ground for the long term in Iraq would have provided continued containment at a much lower cost than a war. This was clearly the preferred approach by most other countries on the Security Council but rejected by the US. Blix commented that $80 million a year for such a permanent inspection force was a lot less than $80 billion a year for an invasion and 5-10 years at least of subsequent occupation.

So, yes, Terry, there were alternatives to the current war and it is far from clear that a massive campaign to oust Saddam, without international sanction and therefore perceived as illegitimate by not only the entire Middle-East but most of the world will improve global security.

There is plenty of evidence that countries like Syria, Iran, North Korea are accelerating their WMD programs so as not to be the next target on the US list. The irony is that if you can get your hands on WMDs then you are pretty much safe. Repercussions in countries with nuclear capabilities such as Pakistan and strong islamist undercurrents. Let us not forget that most Pakistanis are Pashtuns like the Taliban, that Al Queda operatives are found weekly in Pakistan where they still roam pretty much freely. Musharraf, perceived by many in Pakistan as a puppet of the US may not survive very long. Hamid Karzai, running his own puppet regime in Afghanistan, can barely go outside of Kabul without being a target of assassination. If Afghanistan is the model for a future Iraq, I would be very worried by now.

"Up to 30,000 Coalition troops are reported to be in Northern Iraq."

Treat as propaganda?

JB,

Thanks for your thoughtful statement. The one question I have, given your analysis, is: What then is the real reason for the invasion? Did the Bush administration disagree with world opinion regarding Saddam's danger or did they want to use the war for larger, regional interests? Or both? Or other?

LJ:

My personal opinion is that the neoconservatives led by ultra-hawk Richard Perle and his pals at the shady Defense Policy Board have hoodwinked GWB & Co into believing that ousting Saddam would be a quick and largely bloodless affair. This opinion is widespread and detailed in articles such as the following from the American Prospect.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/4/dreyfuss-r.html

The State Department led by Colin Powell, never believed it, but was largely sidelined by the Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz crowd.

The scary part is that Perle and Co. based their analysis largely on delusions by Ahmed Chalabi, a good friend of Perle and still recently touted as the replacement for Saddam and the "George Washington" of Iraq. The problem is that Chalabi has no credibility anywhere, is totally unknown to all Iraquis and is a known profiteer convicted for fraud.

As things are turning out right now, he is no longer as popular in the Pentagon, which is belatedly realizing they have been deceived as well. See the following UPI report on Chalabi and his relations with the Pentagon.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030307-092710-3308r

It is really scary that an entire invasion may have been at least partially predicated on fabrications by a delusional fraudster.

just wanted to post "me too" about the comments. please don't censor any of the comments, but please do set up a filtering system, preferrably allowing moderation a la slash. because while i do wish the signal-to-noise ratio was higher, there are sometimes when i want to be entertained by the loonies.

George: "What a corker when Google let slip that anyone applying for a job with them hasd to have the highest level of U.S. military security clerarance! Suddenly the jovial 'front end' begins to look like Ronald MacDonald's evil grin."

This is a load of nonsense. I have a family member and several friends working for Google. I've been recruited by Google myself. I don't have any security clearance, my family member doesn't have any clearance, and my friends don't have any clearance.

Start Quote:
Posted by jmon at March 29, 2003 09:56 AM
It is becoming more certain that the US and British invading forces will be turned back at Baghdad. The Iraqi people will defend it even more fiercely than the Russians at Stalingrad.
The US hopes for empire will be crushed and 80%(nonCows) of the world will have a mighty celebration.
End Quote:

jmon, what makes you think the coalition forces will enter Bagdad ? I certainly hope not. All we have to do is surround the city. At that point, we control the oil and water (from damns upriver) and the electricity if we choose. We can let people leave and allow food into the city, but I see no reason to go in. Let Saddam sit in a bunker for years while we rebuild iraq into a free country. It worked for Germany and Japan, didnt it ?

As for "hopes of an empire", what rubbish. If we wanted to start and empire we could of easily done this in GW1.

Mad Dog

Start Quote:
Houston, we have a problem.

The US can claim this is a just war to liberate Iraqis, overthrow Saddam or rid the country of WMD. However, it is clear that the Iraqis and approx. 1 billion muslims view this war as an attack on their people, their natural resources and their way of life. Where exactly is the exit strategy here?
End Quote:

The exit strategy is the Marshall Plan (a revised version). You have to start convincing people that we are gone once we put a framework in place. I would wager that most of the arab world doesnt know about our efforts in rebuilding Germany and Japan. That serves of kind of proof that we will leave once the job is done.

Mad Dog

Start Quote:
It said the attack, which took place earlier on Saturday, had killed 11 U.S. soldiers and destroyed two tanks and two armored personnel carriers.
End Quote:

Talk about propoganda. The Coalition admits when we lose vehicles from road accidents and enemy fire, but somehow we are supposed to think a car bomb can take out 2 tanks and 2 APCs ? What, did the taxi driver park the car bomb on top of all 4 vehicles ?

Mad Dog

Start Quote:
Posted by Telli at March 29, 2003 11:02 AM
Are those silkworm missiles a threat to shipping in the gulf. Can they hit ships.
End Quote:

The Silkworm was designed to be an anti-ship missle. I suppose it could be a danger to shipping, but I think it needs some sort of active guidance which the iraqis no longer have (on the coast). I am guessing they rigged the missle on a ballistic course to hit Kuwait City, but I dont know if its supposed to be able to do that or not.

Mad Dog

Start Quote:
Posted by baffled111 at March 29, 2003 11:05 AM
2 questions about the missile in Kuwait. I've not observed any answers these questions, can anyone help?

1. why would a Chinese missile have writing in English on it?

2. how could the Iraqis launch a missile from the sea? Aren't the coalition troops keeping an eye on it?

Thanks!

End Quote:

1) The chinese, desperate for electronic components that we wont sell them, are probably resorting to the old Soviet trick of ripping apart Speak N Spells for parts (thats kind of a joke for you older people out there - then again I bet it has the ring of truth to it).

2) They probably didnt launch from sea, but put the missle on a programmed ballistic course from a land launcher.

Mad Dog

Start Quote:
DavidByron:
"Up to 30,000 Coalition troops are reported to be in Northern Iraq."

Treat as propaganda?
End Quote:

Probably. Maybe they plan for 30000 coalition troops to be there (173rd Airborne brigade and probably 1-2 brigades from the 1st infantry). Add in a pinch of Kurdish soldiers and you get somewhere around 30000. As for now, I doubt it, unless there are a lot more Kurdish soldiers than I previously heard.

Mad Dog

More info on the hawks that have pushed this war.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EC20Ak07.html

To: jb
Why do you think Bush and co. were misled? I am curious.

Bush was misled......? That is almost funny.
Has anyone followed Thawra, the Syrian state news.....reading "The Crime of the Era" left me concerned about the spread of this "adventure" into a complete regional conflict. I realize that Thawra is state controlled, but, that means what Assad wants to say, gets said.
I think many people gravely underestimate the dangers we face as this war becomes more bloody for the civilians.

It's a Saturday, and a slowish news day. I don't see any increase in cranks here, just a decrease of informative posters, who are probably out shopping or washing the car.

Or umpiring youth softball games ;)

Boy, I'm not ever going to be able to leave the house again until this war is over. I miss too much on the Agonist ;)

I am guessing they rigged the missle on a ballistic course to hit Kuwait City, but I dont know if its supposed to be able to do that or not.

That was my guess too. One of the pieces of debris bore the words "PLACE PROTRACTOR" in red lettering. The zero degree line on the protractor is placed on a line parallel to the longitudinal axis of the missile, then the missile is elevated to the appropriate angle, calculated based on thrust and distance to target, to reach the vicinity of the target.

I would venture another guess that the mall was not the intended target, but rather that the missile was meant for the nearby British Embassy.