www.theseminal.com

Popular mythology notwithstanding, Israel's existence and Palestinian anti-Semitism don't have much to do with the holocaust. Palestinian attacks on Jews began way back in the 19th century, long before the holocaust, and, of course, Jews have been residing on their land there for over 3,000 years. The problem isn't Israel, it's anti-Semitism. Pure and simple. This should be obvious by now. The comment above openly wishing that the Nazis had eliminated all of the Jews pretty much proves it. It's extraordinary that anyone would deny it at this point.

misunderstand a post? "Openly wishing that the Nazis had eliminated all the Jews"??? How on earth did you arrive at that disgusting and absurd point of view? It makes me physically sick. If you actually knew me, you'd be dumbfounded by such an ill-deserved accusation. In light of the present situation, when the US is positioned on the side of those who have unleashed such a vastly disproportinately violent attack on an all but defenseless population. The world knows that Israel is quite probably carrying out war crimes in Gaza and yet finds itself powerless to intervene. I had wondered aloud how the world might have been affected if, 60 years ago, the US had then also backed itself into a situation where they militarily equipped the aggressor, thereby enabling it. Thankfully, for all mankind, the Jews of Europe were finally rescued, in no small measure because of the militarily superior intervention of the USA in turning the tide of war. Sadly, it is unlikely that the relentless process of the apparent annihilation of the people of Gaza will have any such reversal.

Incidentally, since you yourself seem more than a little bit loose with the history of the local situation - and if, when the blood of children is flowing, history really matters - you might look into a very well condensed and balanced Mideast history. The site also includes numerous maps, etc.

History is a fraud. History is happening now. With each brutal civilian death in Gaza, a renewed appetite for revenge is surely born. Having ignored the collective will of the world's united nations, can Israel expect to defend itself from the violent future that it is, at this very moment, creating?

that the very web site you linked (which seems to have an incorrect address)was the very same one that jonbrown linked some time ago to prove that Hamas was intent on destroying Israel. My full response to his post is below.

"Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, and there's a lot in your position regarding willingness to negotiate that I don't disagree with. While I feel that the Mideast Web, which I discovered years ago, is somewhat tilted toward the Israeli position, it does at least go beyond most mainstream sources in providing some balance.

There's no question that the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, as did the PLO's under Arafat. But keep in mind that Arafat eventually rescinded this language, and, as per the articles that I linked in my previous comment, Hamas not only offered to do the same even before it was elected but also recognize Israel within its pre-1967 borders. I can understand why Israel might not accept the terms of that offer, but at least it's an offer. When it comes to negotiating with "terrorists," there are many instances in which yesterday's terrorists become today's or tomorrow's leaders (Begin, Shamir, Sharon all qualify based on their documented early history).

In addition, Hamas' offer was made when it was in fact a legitimately elected government able to represent Gaza (especially since its ejection of Fatah was not unprovoked). It looks as if Israel was the one in that case that rejected negotiations. Regarding Israeli willingness to trade land for peace, there's unfortunately a good deal of evidence, some of it from Sharon's right hand man, Dov Weisglas, that the withdrawal from Gaza was less to pursue peace than to shut down any negotiations with the Palestinian government altogether. The aftermath of the withdrawal was the sealing off of Gaza, leaving it far worse than it was under occupation. Now, I'm not claiming that the Palestinians haven't been guilty of sabotaging negotiations and that Arafat's incompetence didn't play a role in the demise of Camp David II; only that there is more than one side to this that needs to be taken into account."

You're correct, Chickadee, that his accounts play loose with history. For example, the claim that Jews have been residing in Palestine for 3,000 years only reflects a small, mostly orthodox population, that, by the way, opposed the Zionists, who started settling Palestine in the 1800s. I'm willing to acknowledge other points of view in this controversy and listen to new evidence, but making categorical statements makes it difficult to respond. The only other thing I'd take into consideration is that it's unthinkable that we would have sided with Germany under any circumstances given what it stood for.

for bringing balance into the picture. I appreciate it. I also agree that my imagination definitely ventured into more than usually fanciful territory when considering other possible WWII alliances. Runaway imaginings need to be slapped down sometimes - preferably before hitting the "Post Comment" button.

I guess the correct mideast history link is here. While there are certainly excellent summaries of the history available elsewhere, this writer is pretty fair. It just seems to be in his links provided and several of the auxiliary pages that the train goes off the rails.

Runaway imaginings need to be slapped down sometimes - preferably before hitting the "Post Comment" button. LOL

_{Tolerating prostitution is tolerating abuse and torture of women and children.}

We will not sell our people or principles for foreign aid

Palestinians voted for Hamas because of our refusal to give up their rights. But we are ready to make a just peace

o Khalid Mish'al · Khalid Mish'al is head of the political bureau of Hamas
o The Guardian, Tuesday 31 January 2006

snip but read it all

Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us - our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else's sins or solve somebody else's problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

· Khalid Mish'al is head of the political bureau of Hamas hoood88@hotmail.com

found via Huff