Israeli-Hezbollah Conflict Open Thread IX

Team Agonist - This is the Middle East Crisis VI open-thread. Please post all developments, news stories, comments, links, theories, ideas, etc. here in this thread. The earlier threads can be found here and here and here. and here. and here. and here and here and here. If you post comments in this thread, please do not post identical news articles in the newsqueue.

Lebanon: Nasrallah Offers Cease-Fire Terms

Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah offered in a taped televised speech to stop rocket attacks against Israel if the country halts attacks on Lebanese towns, The Associated Press reported Aug. 3. The tape aired on Lebanese TV channel LBC. Nasrallah also said that, should Israeli ground forces attack Beirut, Hezbollah will strike Tel Aviv. There are tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers on the ground and Hezbollah is trying to stop their advance, he added.

Tactical Update August 3:

At least eight Israel Defense Forces (IDF) combat brigades are fully engaged along the border region of southern Lebanon, with operations in 20 villages, up to 3 miles into Lebanese territory. Israeli news site Ynetnews has reported that 15 special forces operations, including the Aug. 2 Baalbek raid, have been conducted much deeper inside Lebanese territory since fighting began.

More as it develops. Updated map below.

Israel: 'Very Near' Goal In Lebanon

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated that Israel is "very near" its goal in Lebanon in a newspaper interview Aug. 3.

Israel: Hezbollah Fires On Qiryat Shemona

Hezbollah reportedly fired a barrage of mortar rounds at Qiryat Shemona on Aug. 3. While no casualties have yet been reported, Qiryat Shemona is only a short distance from Lebanese territory and one of the most important staging grounds for Israel Defense Force operations in Lebanon.

Israel/Lebanon Update: Aug. 2, 2006

There are now roughly 10,000 Israeli troops, including at least one reserve unit, operating inside Lebanon. There are more than five combat brigades (at least three infantry and two armor) engaged. Operations range from foot patrols using llamas as pack animals to heavily armored thrusts supported by combat engineers.

Fighting has been especially heavy in Aita el-Shaab, where three Israel Defense Forces (IDF) paratroopers were killed and another 25 wounded. Overnight, IDF made a daring raid more than 62 miles into Lebanon at Baalbek, deep in the Bekaa Valley, the very heart of Hezbollah operations.

Israel: Rockets Fired At Maalot During Night

A house was hit when several rockets landed near the Israeli city of Maalot on Aug. 3. The strike is the first since the beginning of the recent Israel/Hezbollah conflict to occur inside Israel during the night.

Israel: Pre-emptive Military Action

Israel's offensive in Lebanon is an attempt to pre-empt the threat posed by Hezbollah's Iranian patrons, Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz said Aug. 2. The threat of Hezbollah attacks, combined with the possibility of a nuclear threat from Iran a year from now, would have led to a much more complex situation for Israel, Peretz added.

Nukes a year from now? What is Peretz smoking and can I get some?

Hezbollah fires record number of rockets

Israel - Hezbollah rockets struck
Israel in record numbers and deeper than ever Wednesday, pushing the three-week total over the 2,000 mark and killing a Boston-born man fleeing on his bicycle toward shelter.

The barrage, which followed a two-day lull, came despite the Israeli army chief's claim that the offensive in south Lebanon had eroded Hezbollah's firepower. Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz also threatened to resume air raids against the Lebanese capital.

Fuel shortage hampering aid efforts

United Nations humanitarian agencies have warned that fuel shortages and associated distribution problems in Lebanon may seriously affect rescue operations and assistance to people trapped in southern parts of the country.


Sean Paul Kelley August 3, 2006 - 2:38pm

You mean everything Stunster reports
isn't true?

Oh my...

Submitted by Sully on August 2, 2006 - 5:06am.

Hizbullah's Al-Manar television said 200 rockets hit Israeli settlements, but the claim could not immediately be verified. Lebanese security forces said more than 300 rockets had been fired by Hizbullah since dawn.

The rocket salvo followed after a statement by Israeli Prime Ehud Olmert in which he said that "the infrastructure of Hizbullah has been entirely destroyed," with more than 700 command positions "wiped out".

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&39D2FE0D7800E26FC22571BE003E363E

Day 22 of fighting: Harsh battles continued Wednesday evening in the village of Aita al-Shaab in the western region of southern Lebanon. Several soldiers were injured during an operation in the village, which is ...

210 rockets hit north Wednesday
Following week of relative calm in Haifa, surrounding areas, rockets land in... (19:37 , 08.02.06 )

http://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3082,00.html

Not everything the Israeli political and military leadership says is true. So maybe you should be 'Oh my-ing' that.

Also, how come it keeps on changing?

stunster August 2, 2006 - 4:31pm

...at the patrol boat - they reported that the boat was struck and sunk. From your previous post here:

"At 4:30 pm (1330 GMT), the Islamic Resistance attacked with its blessed missiles an Israeli SAAR 4.5 (fast attack missile boat), with a crew of 53 officers and soldiers, off the coast of Tyre," it said.

"It was hit and destroyed.

As to your contention that I've somehow distorted what you've said, you're going to have to explain that one - you've contended that the Arabic media has people on the ground, who speak the language, and aren't pushing the IDF line - how is that not "ground truth"? You've flatly asserted that the Israeli media are frequently stenographers.

Most of the time they are simply stenographers for the military propagandists, whereas the Arabic networks have reporters on the ground in Lebanon, speaking in the language to people who are not IDF press officers.

How is what I said significantly different?

I don't think that it's quite as simple as the Israeli media simply being stenographers for the IDF and the Arab media having ground truth."

Because I didn't say "mostly"? Is that what suddenly changes it to "an extreme dichotomy" and a misrepresentation of your remarks? Interesting notion.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 4:48pm

...To justify a strike in urban areas stretches credibility the targets are military. In more remote areas where hospitals and vehicles, have identification on the roofs, or houses away from built-up areas, the onus is on the country with the airforce to prove the target was justified. It's not enough to claim, it was suspected there were combatants inside them or that the civilian population was hiding them.....Submitted by canuck on August 2, 2006 - 7:32am

Before you can justify a strike on any particular target in Lebanon in this war, you have to justify this war as such.

I don't accept the presumption that that has been done, legally or morally.

All arguments about the justification or otherwise for specific target criteria are moot, legally and morally, until that bigger issue is properly addressed.

People argued about how justified or otherwise US military tactics were, say, in Fallujah, as if the legitimacy of the invasion of Iraq was clearly established in international law. No military tactics are justified if the military action as a whole is unjustified, and that includes such simple things as driving a tank up a country road.

What is the legal basis for holding that kidnapping of two soldiers justifies warfare on the scale waged by Israel on Lebanon? It's not as if this all started with rockets falling on Haifa. Right from the get-go, many diplomats were calling Israel's response 'excessive', 'disproportionate', and so on.

Nuremberg laid down the principle that it is the waging of unjustified war which is the principal war crime, from which all the other war crimes flow. I think an excellent legal and moral case can be made, and will be made by Lebanon at the ICC, that this whole war by Israel is a war crime.

stunster August 2, 2006 - 4:57pm

Give me a break! From my reference point, there is no such thing as a 'moral' war.

What the Geneva Convections attempt to do in the case of war is lay down some rules about the conduct of it, otherwise known as Jus in Bello. None of Geneva Conventions pass judgements.

I never mentioned Nuremberg.

But long before Nuremberg there were theories about just war (Jus Ad Bellum) that countries used. Just War Theory

I will not take sides on who is and who isn't justified regarding this war. That would take a much greater mind than mine, which would require an indepth knowledge of law, ethics, and philosophy. That's well beyond the scope of my initial post regarding the topic at hand.

BTW, Nuremberg did have an influence on International Laws. But not all countries are members of the International Criminal Ccourt (ICC), because not all countries ratified the treaty. Israel objected and isn't currently a member to the best of my knowledge.

canuck August 2, 2006 - 5:38pm

Channel 4 News, here in the UK, carried a report this evening about the 'Hezbollah fighters' captured in Baalbek last night.

Seems they were all from the same family - the Nasrallah family, and the owner of the house the were all sheltering in's first name was, yup, you guessed it, Hassan.

Imagine the IDF's disappointment when they found out that that they had not captured the head of Hizbollah, but the owner of the local mini-mart.
You can watch the report here:
http://www.channel4.com/news/

Follow the link, then look for the 'Special Reports' section on the right of the screen. This report is titled 'Escaping'

stonehouse August 2, 2006 - 5:19pm

was asked if they had captured a 'big fish'. He reportedly replied, 'Well, some tasty fish'.

Did Mr Nasrallah have some explosives, er, I mean sardines on his person when kidnapped?

stunster August 2, 2006 - 6:02pm

think it's amusing that Mr. was confused with Sheikh. No doubt the difference for the Israeli Intelligence Service in the translation between Arabic and Hebrew? ROTFL!

canuck August 2, 2006 - 6:10pm

For anyone. Just an interesting coincidence.
I wonder how long these guys will remain guests of the IDF.

stonehouse August 3, 2006 - 2:12am

Link

Hmmmm.

stunster August 2, 2006 - 7:53pm

Paul Krugman: Shock and Awe

For Americans who care deeply about Israel, one of the truly nightmarish things about the war in Lebanon has been watching Israel repeat the same mistakes the United States made in Iraq. It’s as if Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been possessed by the deranged spirit of Donald Rumsfeld...

...What I never expected was that Israel — a nation that has unfortunately had plenty of experience with both war and insurgency — would be susceptible to similar fantasies. Yet that’s what seems to have happened....

link

stunster August 2, 2006 - 8:20pm

Ze'ev Schiff, Amos Harel and Aluf Benn | August 3

Ha'aretz - The Israel Defense Forces is planning a new defensive line in southern Lebanon that will be six to eight kilometers north of the Israeli border.

The area that the IDF has brought under its control is comparable to the security zone it held until the pullout from Lebanon in May 2000.

IDF soldiers engaged in fierce gunbattles in south Lebanon on Wednesday evening, and killed at least seven Hezbollah gunmen, the IDF said. One IDF soldier was killed and two were seriously wounded in the fighting, which began before dawn Wednesday, and 12 others were lightly hurt.

Most of the fighting, conducted by Golani Brigade infantry troops, took place near the village of Mahabib, north of the Israeli community of Manara, and in the village of Ayta a-Shab.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:24pm

Ze'ev Schiff | August 3

Haaretz - The note that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert sent to Chief of Staff Dan Halutz during the graduation ceremony at the National Security College on Tuesday, and that appeared in Haaretz on Wednesday, is evidence of the gap that exists between the Israel Defense Forces' timetable for completing its operation in southern Lebanon and what the prime minister has in mind but is not saying.

While IDF officials believe that even a limited ground operation of some intensity in southern Lebanon must continue until the weekend, a broader mission would call for an additional 10 days. No government approval for such an operation has been secured.

Ideally, the IDF would also like a number of weeks for "clean-up" operations. The prime minister has indicated only that it has at least until next Monday. In his note, Olmert wrote: "Chief of Staff! If we have time... at least until Monday... because only then will the Security Council convene."

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:27pm

David Bauder | New York | August 1

AP - Three news agencies on Tuesday rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged.

Photographers from The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all covered rescue operations Sunday in Qana, where 56 Lebanese were killed. Many of their photos depicted rescue workers carrying dead children.

A British Web site, the EU Referendum blog, built an argument that chicanery may have been involved by citing time stamps that went with captions of the photographs.

Rick August 2, 2006 - 8:36pm

Efrat Weiss | August 3

Yediot Aharonot
- Day 23 of war in Lebanon: Cleared for publication: An Israel Defense Forces soldier was killed Wednesday in a harsh battle in the village of Aita al-Shaab in the western region of southern Lebanon.

Another soldier was seriously injured and six troops were lightly wounded in two incidents. The rescue operation lasted for hours.

After three weeks of fighting, the IDF is expected to complete its deployment a "security zone", 5-6 kilometers (3.1-3.7 miles) inside the Lebanese territory. A Lebanese or multinational force is expected to later enter this zone.

Large forces concentrated in the village of Aita al-Shaab, near the community of Zarit on the western region, and battles continued there for the third day in a row.

On Wednesday, at around 6 p.m., the exchanges of fire between paratroopers and terrorists were resumed. During the battle, an IDF soldier was seriously wounded and another two troops were lightly wounded.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:37pm

Beirut | August 3

AFP - Israel hacked into Hizbullah's television channel Tuesday, showing pictures of corpses and claiming the group's leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, was a liar. One of the images shown on Al-Manar TV portrayed the body of a fighter lying face-down, with a text beneath in Arabic reading: "This is the photograph of a body of a member of Hizbullah's special forces."

"Nasrallah lies: It is not us that are hiding our losses," said the text, which appeared during the evening news and stayed on screen for several minutes.

A photo of Nasrallah also appeared with the caption: "member of Hizbullah: watch out."

Another photograph of corpses was framed by the words: "There are a large number of corpses like this on the ground and Nasrallah is hiding this truth."

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:40pm

August 3

The Daily Star (Beirut) - Hizbullah fired more rockets into Israel on Wednesday than on any previous day of the 22-day-old war, after helicopter-borne commandos attacked resistance targets in Israel's deepest raid into Lebanon. Air strikes in support of the helicopter raid in the Hizbullah stronghold of Baalbek in northeastern Lebanon killed 19 people, including five children.

In Jerusalem, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Israel would fight on until an international force reaches South Lebanon. He also said the release of two Israeli soldiers captured by Hizbullah must be unconditional, signaling Israel does not favor a prisoner swap. The prime minister added that the outcome of fighting in Lebanon will create "new momentum" for Israel's plan to separate from the Palestinians by withdrawing from much of the West Bank.

Olmert said his government favors finding a diplomatic solution to the Lebanon conflict but that "Israel is not afraid of fighting ... No one can intimidate Israel. No amount of rockets and missiles can stop Israel from exercising its fundamental right to self-defense."

Justice Minister Haim Ramon later told Israeli public radio the offensive in Lebanon would last until the end of next week.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:42pm

Washington D.C. | August 3

AFP - The United States and France have significantly narrowed their differences over how to achieve a ceasefire in Lebanon and could present a draft resolution to the UN Security Council by early next week, a senior US official said Wednesday.

"I would say that our point of view and the French point of view are really converging, to the point now where we are working off a single text of a draft resolution," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

"We agree on all the major elements. It's now a question of how those elements fit together and how you memorialize, encapsulate those elements in texts of UN resolutions," he said.

McCormack said Washington hoped to reach an agreement and submit the resolution at the UN within days, either this week or early next week.

There were no immediate plans for a meeting of foreign ministers from the five Security Council permanent members -- the Britain, China, France, Russia and the US -- on the matter, he added.

Ambassadors from the five nations were holding intensive talks on the crisis in New York Wednesday, while senior US officials in Washington were also in constant touch with their counterparts in other capitals in a bid to thrash out a deal, officials said.

France holds a key role in the negotiations because it is expected to provide the bulk of an international military force to be deployed in southern Lebanon as part of a deal to end three weeks of deadly fighting between Israel and the Lebanese Islamic militia Hezbollah.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:45pm

Beirut | August 3

The Daily Star (Beirut) - March 14 Forces member MP Walid Jumblatt accused Hizbullah on Wednesday of working in coordination with Iran and Syria when it abducted two Israeli soldiers in a July 12 border raid. However Jumblatt added that the Lebanese had to support the resistance against Israel for the time being.

During an interview with The Financial Times on Wednesday, Jumblatt said that "like many Lebanese I have to support the resistance against brutal Israeli attacks."

"[They are] a well-entrenched guerrilla army, not afraid to die, plus they are fighting Viet-Cong style," Jumblatt said. "Israel's widening offensive will only cause more destruction and weaken the Lebanese state further.

"After July 12, Lebanon is now unfortunately being entrenched solidly into the Syrian-Iranian axis. The hopes of a stable, prosperous Lebanon where we could attract investments is over for now. It is a fatal blow for confidence.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 2, 2006 - 8:49pm

I'm watching this war with grave concern. The Israelis have much more justification in what they have done than the US and UK had in toppling Saddam. The results, though are appalling. The Israelis have embarked on a war they cannot win and which they cannot afford to lose. Canada's Prime Minister Harper has described the Israeli actions as a 'measured response' which seems rather tactless after Quana. Yet what should the Israelis have done?

I suppose that one answer is to become more effective at shooting down Hezbollah's missiles. The alternative, as we have seen, is a costly ground and air war with massive destruction and casualties among the innocent. Is there an Agonista who can shed some light on the difficulties the Israelis are having in shooting down the missles?

geogblog August 2, 2006 - 9:08pm

The Israelis are having trouble shooting down Hisbollah's missiles because they are short-ranged, small rockets. Most of what Hisbollah have fired are the equivalent of a 5-inch artillery round, with a warhead which weighs about 50 pounds. If the rocket is launched on a low trajectory with a short flight time, more danger likely exists from the unspent solid fuel in the rocket. You can imagine how difficult it is to shoot down the equivalent of a five-inch pipe about six feet long which you can target for only a few seconds. By the time the radar has identified a targeting solution the rocket has dropped to earth.

To put the danger ratio in perspective, the typical Israeli airstrike consists of two 500-pound aerial bombs. So, one Israeli airstrike is the equivalent of 20 typical rockets. The Hisbollah spasm we saw today (let's agree on 250 rockets) is the equivalent of twenty-five 500-pound bombs, or 13 typical airstrikes. Quite of few of the Israeli airstrikes are 1000-pound and 2000-pound bombs targeted at structures and infrastructure, so the comparison would rapidly shift in the Israeli's firepower favor. This is one of the reasons why so many complaints about a disproportionate response have been voiced.

VizierVic August 2, 2006 - 10:57pm

I suppose that one answer is to become more effective at shooting down Hezbollah's missiles. The alternative, as we have seen, is a costly ground and air war with massive destruction and casualties among the innocent. Is there an Agonista who can shed some light on the difficulties the Israelis are having in shooting down the missles?

While the Israelis have the Patriot (or the Arrow - I dont recall if they both), I dont think it was designed to shoot down relatively small rockets that Hz. is using. Furthermore, Hz is lobbing so many, I think you would run out of anti-missles quite quickly.

If I had to hypothesize, the only possible defense might be a type of laser/focused energy beam weapon that was demonstrated several years ago, which shot down an artillery shell. I have to assume that a lot more development was required so I wouldnt expect to see such a weapon for a few years.

Then again, I could be totally wrong.

Mad Dog

MadDog August 3, 2006 - 8:31pm

POUND for pound and pounding for pounding, the Israeli military is one of the world’s finest. But Hezbollah, with the discipline and ferocity of its fighters and ability to field advanced weaponry, has taken Israel by surprise.

[snip] please do not post full articles in comments ~editors

“Most critically, we have to get better at — it’s such a cliché — winning hearts and minds,” said a military officer working on counterinsurgency issues. “That is influencing neutral populations toward supporting us and not supporting our terrorist and insurgent enemies.”

New York Times THOM SHANKER WASHINGTON
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/weekinreview/30shanker.html

COMMENT: Shades of Iwo Jima and Vietnam. It is costly and ugly; the rooting out of enemy forces from tunnel labyrinths whether Japanese in the mountains of Pacific islands or Vietnamese in the jungle mud. And you must clear the tunnels completely or the enemy will come out into your rear and stage ambushes that generate high casualties. Given that Hezballah has had over six years to build tunnel warrens all over South Lebanon, it will take the IDF a long time and many bodies to clear them all out...if they ever do. But that is the type of warfare we often face in Afghanistan (as did the Russians before us there) and in any third world nation (such as Venezuela) that observes the success of Hezballah in resisting conventional military forces. It did not help Israel that they totally underestimated the tenacity and tactics of Hezballah and thus commtted far too few troops to the initial assaults to effectively defeat the smaller, entrenched/tunnelled Hezballah units.

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor August 2, 2006 - 10:03pm

Seems to me that if you don't want to deal with the bunkers and tunnels, you don't invade. Of course, another time the missiles might precede the bombing or the invasion. I'm probably confused, but this does defensive. If you don't walk into a trap the trap doesn't work very well.

pihwht August 2, 2006 - 10:51pm

to strengthen its lines opposite the Golan and Lebanon

Tank and missile units are heading Wednesday towards the Israeli Golan border.

Late last week, Assad told the Syrian army to step up state of readiness and take two further provocative steps. A bomb was detonated over the weekend at the Golan border fence near Kuneitra, though causing no casualties, and the Syrian president put defense minister Gen. Hassan Turkemeni in charge of military assistance to Hizballah. He also instructed chief of staff Gen. Ali Habib to personally oversee Syrian-Iranian cooperation for military consignments to Hizballah.

In his order of the day to the Syrian army, Bashar Assad wrote: “I call on all units, divisions, brigades and battalions to redouble their training efforts and maintain a high state of readiness. Remember that every drop of sweat you invest in training will save a drop of blood when the time comes.”

He added: “Threats from the ‘masters of the world’ (US and Israel) telling us to beware will not divert us from our path.”

DEBKAfile’s Middle East sources add: For three weeks, Assad has been working up to provoking a limited war engagement with Israel.

1. A close crony, Syrian lawmaker Marwan Habash is advocating the creation of a resistance (terrorist) movement on the Golan Heights - likewise the prominent cleric, Sheikh Asad Kopertou.

2. For the first time in three decades the presidential palace allowed Syrian Druze leaders to openly speak out in favor of an armed campaign to recapture the Golan Heights.

Israeli intelligence leaders are not of one mind about what these steps signify. Some diagnose posturing by Damascus to get in on the Lebanon act while not taking the chance of a missile war with Israel; others argue that the Syrian president must be angling for a limited military confrontation, otherwise he would not so blatantly parade his backing for the Hizballah.

August 2, 2006, 12:01 PM (GMT+02:00)

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3023

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor August 2, 2006 - 10:09pm

Entire Lebanese family killed in Israeli attack on hospital
Published: 03 August 2006
Independent

An attack on a hospital, the killing of an entire Lebanese family, the seizure of five men in Baalbek and a new civilian death toll - 468 men, women and children - marked the 22nd day of Israel's latest war on Lebanon.

The Israelis claimed that helicopter-borne soldiers had seized senior Hizbollah leaders although one of them turned out to be a local Baalbek grocer. In a village near the city, Israeli air strikes killed the local mayor's son and brother and five children in their family.

The battle for Lebanon was fast moving out of control last night. Lebanese troops abandoned many of their checkpoints and European diplomats were warning their colleagues that militiamen were taking over the positions. Up to 8,000 Israeli troops were reported to have crossed the border by last night in what was publicised as a military advance towards the Litani river. But far more soldiers would be needed to secure so large an area of southern Lebanon.

The Israelis sent paratroopers to attack an Iranian-financed hospital in Baalbek in the hope of capturing wounded Hizbollah fighters but, after an hour's battle, got their hands on only five men whom the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, later called "tasty fish". The operation suggests what Hizbollah has all along said was the purpose of the Israeli campaign: to swap prisoners and to exchange Hizbollah fighters for the two Israeli soldiers who were captured on the border on 12 July.

Hizbollah continued to fire dozens of missiles over the border into Israel, killing one Israeli and wounding 21, with Israeli artillery firing shells back into Lebanon at the rate of one every two minutes. For the first time, a Hizbollah rocket struck the West Bank as well as the Israeli town of Beit Shean, the longest-range missile to have been fired so far. Yet still the West seems unable to produce an end to a war which is clearly overwhelming both Hizbollah and the Israelis.

Hizbollah obviously has far more missiles than the Israelis believed - there is not a town in northern Israel which is safe from their fire - and the Israeli army apparently has no plan to defeat Hizbollah other than the old and hopeless policy of occupying southern Lebanon. If Hizbollah had planned this campaign months in advance - and if the Israelis did the same - then neither side left room for diplomacy.

The French have wisely said they will lead a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon only after a ceasefire. And to be sure, they will not let this become a Nato-led army. France already has a company of 100 soldiers in the UN force in southern Lebanon, whose commander is himself French, but Paris, after watching the chaos in Iraq, has no illusions about Western armies in the Middle East.

Outside the shattered Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek yesterday stood two burnt cars and a minivan, riddled with bullet-holes. Hizbollah, it seems, fought the Israelis there for more than an hour. The hospital, which includes several British-manufactured heart machines, was empty when the Israeli raid began and was partly destroyed in the fighting.

The Lebanese army, which has tried to stay out of the conflict - heaven knows what its 75,000 soldiers are supposed to do - was attacked again by the Israelis yesterday when they fired a missile into a car which they claimed was carrying a Hizbollah leader. They were wrong. The soldier inside died instantly, joining the 11 other Lebanese troops proclaimed as "martyrs" by the government from a logistics unit killed in an Israeli air raid two weeks ago.

The obscene score-card for death in this latest war now stands as follows: 508 Lebanese civilians, 46 Hizbollah guerrillas, 26 Lebanese soldiers, 36 Israeli soldiers and 19 Israeli civilians.

In other words, Hizbollah is killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians and the Israelis are killing far more Lebanese civilians than they are guerrillas. The Lebanese Red Cross has found 40 more civilian dead in the south of the country in the past two days, many of them with wounds suggesting they might have survived had medical help been available.

An attack on a hospital, the killing of an entire Lebanese family, the seizure of five men in Baalbek and a new civilian death toll - 468 men, women and children - marked the 22nd day of Israel's latest war on Lebanon.

The Israelis claimed that helicopter-borne soldiers had seized senior Hizbollah leaders although one of them turned out to be a local Baalbek grocer. In a village near the city, Israeli air strikes killed the local mayor's son and brother and five children in their family.

The battle for Lebanon was fast moving out of control last night. Lebanese troops abandoned many of their checkpoints and European diplomats were warning their colleagues that militiamen were taking over the positions. Up to 8,000 Israeli troops were reported to have crossed the border by last night in what was publicised as a military advance towards the Litani river. But far more soldiers would be needed to secure so large an area of southern Lebanon.

The Israelis sent paratroopers to attack an Iranian-financed hospital in Baalbek in the hope of capturing wounded Hizbollah fighters but, after an hour's battle, got their hands on only five men whom the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, later called "tasty fish". The operation suggests what Hizbollah has all along said was the purpose of the Israeli campaign: to swap prisoners and to exchange Hizbollah fighters for the two Israeli soldiers who were captured on the border on 12 July.

Hizbollah continued to fire dozens of missiles over the border into Israel, killing one Israeli and wounding 21, with Israeli artillery firing shells back into Lebanon at the rate of one every two minutes. For the first time, a Hizbollah rocket struck the West Bank as well as the Israeli town of Beit Shean, the longest-range missile to have been fired so far. Yet still the West seems unable to produce an end to a war which is clearly overwhelming both Hizbollah and the Israelis.

Hizbollah obviously has far more missiles than the Israelis believed - there is not a town in northern Israel which is safe from their fire - and the Israeli army apparently has no plan to defeat Hizbollah other than the old and hopeless policy of occupying southern Lebanon. If Hizbollah had planned this campaign months in advance - and if the Israelis did the same - then neither side left room for diplomacy.

The French have wisely said they will lead a peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon only after a ceasefire. And to be sure, they will not let this become a Nato-led army. France already has a company of 100 soldiers in the UN force in southern Lebanon, whose commander is himself French, but Paris, after watching the chaos in Iraq, has no illusions about Western armies in the Middle East.

Outside the shattered Dar al-Hikma hospital in Baalbek yesterday stood two burnt cars and a minivan, riddled with bullet-holes. Hizbollah, it seems, fought the Israelis there for more than an hour. The hospital, which includes several British-manufactured heart machines, was empty when the Israeli raid began and was partly destroyed in the fighting.

The Lebanese army, which has tried to stay out of the conflict - heaven knows what its 75,000 soldiers are supposed to do - was attacked again by the Israelis yesterday when they fired a missile into a car which they claimed was carrying a Hizbollah leader. They were wrong. The soldier inside died instantly, joining the 11 other Lebanese troops proclaimed as "martyrs" by the government from a logistics unit killed in an Israeli air raid two weeks ago.

The obscene score-card for death in this latest war now stands as follows: 508 Lebanese civilians, 46 Hizbollah guerrillas, 26 Lebanese soldiers, 36 Israeli soldiers and 19 Israeli civilians.

In other words, Hizbollah is killing more Israeli soldiers than civilians and the Israelis are killing far more Lebanese civilians than they are guerrillas. The Lebanese Red Cross has found 40 more civilian dead in the south of the country in the past two days, many of them with wounds suggesting they might have survived had medical help been available.

Asylum August 2, 2006 - 10:45pm

How Israel's gung-ho leaders turned victory into calamity

Our government, in its desperation to outgun its predecessor, spurned a glorious chance to come out of this with honour

Thursday August 3, 2006
The Guardian

There was one moment during the war when we had the upper hand. It was the moment when Israel had succeeded in striking Hizbullah with strong and surprising force, Haifa was peaceful and the number of casualties was small. That was the right moment to stop the war, declare victory and move on to the diplomatic track.

This opportunity came when the G8 convened in St Petersburg on July 14, two days after the fighting broke out. The G8 formulated a four-point plan, and nothing could have been better for Israel. According to that plan, the three Israeli soldiers abducted to Gaza and Lebanon would be returned unharmed, the Katyusha rocket fire against Israel would stop, Israel would halt its military operations and pull back its forces, and it would also release the Hamas ministers and MPs.

The G8 statement declared that the full responsibility for the crisis fell on Hamas and Hizbullah and asked the United Nations security council immediately to formulate a programme for the full implementation of resolution 1559. The statement called for the deployment of the Lebanese army in south Lebanon and suggested looking into the possibility of bringing an international force into the region. Israel and Lebanon were also asked to launch diplomatic talks.

The international atmosphere was also pro-Israel, even among the hostile media. Israel received international legitimacy for its response to the killing and abduction of its soldiers inside its sovereign territory, and all the politicians, especially Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, were amazed at how much the world loved us.

But Olmert and Amir Peretz, the defence minister, did not know when to quit. They wanted to show the public that they, the "civilians", were more courageous than their predecessors, Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon. That is why they continued the war in order to attain goals that from the outset were unattainable.

This does not mean that if Israel had adopted the G8 proposal, the problem of Hizbullah would have been resolved. That would not have happened. That can only be resolved at the diplomatic level, with an Israeli-Syrian-Lebanese agreement. But at least it would have prevented us from deteriorating to the current situation, with its accompanying feeling of failure, the dead and the wounded, the attack on Israel's moral standing, the hatred towards it throughout the world and the damage to Israel's military deterrence.

Israel has not managed to crush Hizbullah and, worse, it has strengthened Hizbullah's standing in Lebanon and the Arab world, which are seeing how a tiny guerrilla organisation has succeeded in standing up to the mighty Israel defence forces and causing Israel serious losses among its civilian population. That is a dangerous precedent.

The Olmert-Peretz plan was to shell and demolish south Lebanon and south Beirut until the Lebanese public demand that its government vomit Hizbullah out from its midst. It appears that, like a number of other Israeli leaders, they did not understand how much killing, poverty and distress people are willing to take, as long as their honour is not harmed, as long as they are not humiliated. And indeed, instead of demanding that Hizbullah be dismantled, the people of Lebanon want revenge, and they want it now. That is their response to the killing of 750 civilians and the destruction of thousands of homes, bridges, roads, villages and towns, setting Lebanon back by 20 years.

Now, after the tragic events in Qana that killed some 60 civilians, even Israel's greatest ally has changed direction and says it wants a speedy ceasefire. Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has declared that Hizbullah's victory is the victory of the entire Lebanese people and that if Israel remains in south Lebanon, he will turn the Lebanese army against it. Siniora even spoke about a ceasefire without any agreement.

Other Lebanese, too - including some who are firm opponents of Hizbullah, such as Walid Jumblatt and Amin Gemayel - have also condemned Israel. Based on what has happened in the field, nothing remains of the grandiose goals of the beginning of the war.

Soon we will start to long for the excellent agreement offered by the G8 at the beginning of the war.

· Today that, too, is unattainable. Nehemia Shtrasler is a columnist for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, where this article first appeared

Asylum August 2, 2006 - 10:48pm

Last update - 04:57 03/08/2006

Hezbollah attempted to hit navy vessel; IDF: No sign of missile

By Amos Harel

Hezbollah attempted for the second time on Monday to hit an Israeli naval vessel, firing three Iranian land-to-sea missiles at a vessel off the Lebanese coast.

The fact that the missiles missed their target did not stop the Hezbollah TV station Al Manar from announcing that it had destroyed an Israeli Sa'ar 4 gunboat.

Following the report by Al Manar, the Israeli navy and intelligence branch of the General Staff swiftly opened an investigation, which found that missiles had been fired, but had not landed anywhere near the ship in question. The ship's crew did not see the missiles.

The missiles fired were Iranian C-802s, the same kind that hit the naval vessel Hanit, a Sa'ar 4.5, a few weeks ago, causing severe damage and killing four soldiers.

Sources in the Israel Defense Forces said they believed that, in the earlier case, Iranian advisors, members of the Revolutionary Guards, were present at the launch of two missiles, the other of which hit and sank a civilian merchant vessel.

In this case, it is not clear what role Iranian advisors may have played.

However, what is know is that the Hezbollah members who launched the missiles were trained in Iran.

A senior intelligence source in Jerusalem said that baseless boasting over a strike is not characteristic of Hezbollah.

The source added that it was a sign of the pressure the organization was under in the wake of the continued Israeli military offensive and the need to present achievements in the fighting even when there are none.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746073.html

Comment: I'd have thought being able to fire a missile at all after having your command, control, communication, supply and weapon firing capability bombed ferociously for three weeks, and indeed 'completely destroyed', is actually quite an achievement.

stunster August 2, 2006 - 11:00pm

...anti-shipping missiles work, it seems likely that the fact that this salvo missed is at least partially due to the degradation of their command and control net and may be entirely due to that degradation. In the first successful attack they fired two missiles, using a shore based radar for coarse targetting data - the radar sets on the missiles themselves which are used for terminal guidance were switched into active mode at a location determined by the shore-based radar. Reporting in the aftermath was that the shore-based radars were struck by the IAF and knocked offline. It seems likely that in the absence of such radars these next three missiles were fired if not blind, then without the best possible situational awareness.

Degradation of command and control doesn't prevent an opponent from launching attacks or conducting operations, what it does is make them less effective (and much less responsive to changing situations) when they do so - launching is easy, launching effectively and hitting anything significant is hard. It's clear that the level of disruption falls short of "completely destroyed" but it's still likely to be significant.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 7:32am

Oh, yes--"There you go again...."

Actually if one knows how a lot of anti-shipping missiles work, it seems likely that the fact that this salvo missed is at least partially due to the degradation of their command and control net and may be entirely due to that degradation.

By using the word 'actually' in the above slightly patronising remark you're making it sound as if I had said or implied that the miss was not due to degradation, when in fact I never said or implied any such thing. Here's what I said:

I'd have thought being able to fire a missile at all after having your command, control, communication, supply and weapon firing capability bombed ferociously for three weeks, and indeed 'completely destroyed', is actually quite an achievement.

(Emphasis added to the original)

It is. Hizballah's ability to continue fighting Israel into a fourth week is quite an achievement and is getting remarked upon as such throughout the Arab and wider Islamic world, not to mention among a large number of independent Western analysts and commentators (and to a much lesser extent by the corporate media).

As for why the missiles missed your speculation could be on the mark. It would be rather amazing, in fact, if after the first, successful attack, the IAF hadn't been able to degrade that capability given how serious a threat it represented. Indeed, one might have expected them to take out the threat altogether right away, yet it appears that they failed to manage that in almost three weeks of massive surveillance and heavy bombing.

However, this really arose in the context of the questioning of the credibility of my conveying of Al Manar's claims, which seemed to be upsetting to one or two people. First, I note that this previous remark of yours now appears to be wrong:

things like a Sa'ar 4.5 patrol boat being hit, something which al-Manar appears recently to have made up out of pretty much whole cloth.

(Emphasis added)

Second, it appears that Israeli intelligence has a higher estimate of Al Manar's credibility than some members of this forum were suggesting ought to be assigned it earlier:

A senior intelligence source in Jerusalem said that baseless boasting over a strike is not characteristic of Hezbollah.

I, of course, never treated, or advocated the treating of, Al Manar's
reporting as gospel. But I have detected in some of the thinly veiled hostility and irritation at my reproducing some of Al Manar's and other Arabic stations' reporting a trace of the highly chauvinistic and prejudiced attitudes towards such reporting typical of the US right wing and the US military (e.g. towards Al-Jazeera).

Just one example of the untrustworthiness of 'our' own media is that twice in the last 48 hours CNN reporters (Blitzer and one other) have stated that 'Hizballah do not give out casualty figures' for its own forces. That's false. Plain, flat-out, demonstrably false.

HA does give out such figures, they're easily available online, in English even! Whether they're accurate is open to dispute, but to deny that they give out such figures--and indeed names and dates of birth and family details of their fallen fighters---is an appalling indication of Western media failings in this regard. What makes it all the more egregious in the case of CNN is that they boast that they're monitoring Arabic networks, as well as internet sources.

stunster August 3, 2006 - 11:21am

Sheesh. It's a reflective "actually" - in the sense of me hopefully shedding light for folks that might not know this sort of thing; providing another perspective that allows readers to more fully contextualize what looks (to me at least) to be going on. Look through my post history - it's a stylistic tic and you'll see it constantly - if I was going to metaphorically piss on your specific shoes I'd say "If you actually knew how...". I hate to rain on your parade, but I don't spend any time trying to figure out how to mischaracterize your views for rhetorical effect. You want to advance a given perspective on something, go to it - if I have something that I think is pertinent and might be of broader interest I'll mention it. If you feel that something I said is a mischaracterization of your views, you may safely presume that it was unintentional, because really I just don't care that much what it is that you or anyone else personally thinks - my primary concern is about clarifying in my own mind what I think is going on and discourse aids that.

More focussed on content, I don't think that launching the specific ordnance we're seeing actually is much of an achievement - the process involves getting the ordnance out of a cache, aiming it in the general direction of the target and launching. Doing it right is a real achievement, just launching the missile really isn't, when compared to the much more detailed work that goes into maximizing chances of a hit - a launch itself is just not a great indicator for command and control capacity. This seems to be widely misunderstood in media accounts and interpretations - hence why I made my point. If you want to assert that reporting that a boat was hit and sunk when it wasn't doesn't constitute making something up out of whole cloth, feel free - I disagree. As to the weakness of western media - you'll find that many of us have been in this forum for a number of years now broadly agree with what you've said above - that same experience leads many of us to be particularly skeptical about what the Hizbullah house organ is putting out.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 12:09pm
stunster August 3, 2006 - 12:39am

Lebanese foreign minister: Israel will not be victorious

Lebanese Foreign Affairs Minister Fawzi Salloukh expressed hopes that "the voice of the Muslim world should be heard solemnly ... In solidarity with the Lebanese people."

Israel "will not be victorious," Salloukh told Malaysia's national news agency, Bernama. "They have destroyed our infrastructure, bridges, airports and seaports, but they cannot destroy our spirit." (AP)

(08.03.06, 06:43)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285622,00.html

06:49 Lebanese FM: We expect a strong condemnation of Israel`s aggression (AP)

stunster August 3, 2006 - 12:42am



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 1:12am

Palestinian groups passing heavy weapons to Hizbullah

PA President Abbas' party, Fatah, calls on its members to be prepared for 'escalated battle' against Israel
Aaron Klein, WND

Palestinian militias operating out of Lebanon have passed large quantities of heavy weaponry, including rockets, to Hizbullah for use against Israel, a senior Lebanese political source told WND.

Al-Qaeda Link?

Report: Bin Laden's son sent to operate against Israel / Reuters

German newspaper reports Iran freed son of al-Qaeda leader from house arrest with aim of sending him to Syria-Lebanon border following outbreak of war between Israel, Hizbullah
Full Story

The move comes amid calls by Palestinian groups in Judea, Samaria and Gaza to prepare for an "escalation" against Israel and follows statements by members of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party that their "fighters" in Lebanon are set to enter combat along with Hizbullah.

Palestinian groups, including Fatah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, maintain armed bases in Lebanon, mostly in the al-Naemeh province just south of Beirut and in the Bekaa Valley near Lebanon's border with Syria. The groups also have offices in Syria.

Israeli and Lebanese officials say the Palestinian groups have been provided over the years with rifles, ammunition, several kinds of long range rockets and antitank and antiaircraft missiles by Iran and Syria. Israel has previously bombed Popular Front bases following rocket attacks against the Jewish state it says were launched from the Palestinian group's military camps in Lebanon.

Weapons stored in Palestinian bases

The Palestinian groups in Lebanon earlier this year clashed with the Lebanese Army. A United Nations Resolutions demands Lebanon disarm "all militias," including armed Palestinian groups.

Lebanese officials tell WND the Palestinian groups in recent days passed heavy weaponry to Hizbullah. They said some of the weapons belonged to Hizbullah but were stored in Palestinian bases.

The officials also said they had information Palestinian camps in Lebanon were being used for Hizbullah training and that some Hizbullah members are still operating out of the camps.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Wednesday Israel has destroyed most of Hizbullah's bases, targeted much of Hizbullah's weapons arsenal and destroyed nearly two-thirds of the group's longer-range rockets.

IDF refrains from targeting Palestinian posts

Hizbullah is still thought to possess up to 10,000 more Katyusha rockets capable of hitting northern Israeli cities and hundreds of Zilzal and other kinds of longer range rockets that can target central Israel, including Tel Aviv. As well, security officials here say rockets continue to be smuggled into Lebanon from the country's border with Syria.

During its current military campaign against Hizbullah, Israel has largely refrained from hitting Palestinian bases in Lebanon.

Last week Sultan Abu al-Aynain, leader of Fatah in Lebanon, announced Palestinian gunmen in the country are set to join the fighting against Israel. He said Fatah has thousands of fighters in Lebanon who are prepared to participate in the fighting. It was unclear whether his comments were coordinated with Abbas.

'Victory over Israel'

WND reported yesterday Bani al-Hassan, a senior Abbas official, sent a letter to hundreds of Fatah members asking them to prepare for an "escalated battle" against Israel while the Jewish state continues its military campaign in Lebanon. The letter was also sent to members of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terror group, the declared "military wing" of Fatah.

"You the fighters are the new generation that will bring us victory over Israel," Hassan wrote in the letter, which was obtained by WND from a Fatah official.

He compelled Fatah members to "be prepared" for an escalation against the Jewish state but did not mention particulars or give specific instructions.

Later that day Hassan led a rally in Ramallah in which he reportedly informed participants he placed Fatah fighters on high alert "ahead of the possibility of escalation of the conflict in Lebanon, which could manifest itself in an escalation of Israeli actions (here)."

"I know what I'm talking about, and I know what I'm referring to," Hassan reportedly told the crowd.

Reprinted with permission of WorldNetDaily

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285631,00.html

stunster August 3, 2006 - 1:21am

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear....

Human rights group accuses Israel of war crimes

Human Rights Watch slams 'indiscriminate attacks against civilians' in new report; states that in many cases, Israeli claims that Hizbullah was using civilians as human shields proved false

Ynetnews

The international watchdog group Human Rights Watch claims in a newly published report that the IDF has been committing indiscriminate attacks against civilians in Lebanon that at certain cases amount to war crimes. "Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hizbullah in Lebanon," the organization stated.

In previous reporting, Human Rights Watch has addressed the conduct of Hizbullah forces, condemning its attacks on civilian areas as serious violations of international humanitarian law amounting to war crimes.

The current report, titled “Fatal Strikes: Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon ,” analyzes almost two dozen cases of Israeli air and artillery attacks on civilian homes and vehicles and claims that of the 153 dead civilians named in the report, 63 are children.

"More than 500 people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli fire since fighting began on July 12, most of them civilians," it states.

HRW slams what it calls the IDF's "disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians."

'Human shield' argument refuted

“Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hizbullah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel’s indiscriminate warfare,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch

“Hizbullah fighters must not hide behind civilians – that’s an absolute – but the image that Israel has promoted of such shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong,” Roth said. “In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hizbullah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hizbullah around.”

According to the HRW, none of the Israeli attacks documented in the report resulted in Hizbullah casualties or the destruction of weapons. "Rather, the attacks have killed and wounded civilians who were fleeing their homes after the IDF issued instructions to evacuate."

“Israeli warnings of imminent attacks do not turn civilians into military targets,” said Roth. “Otherwise, Palestinian militant groups might ‘warn’ Israeli settlers to leave their settlements and then feel justified in attacking those who remained.”

(08.03.06, 08:52)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285648,00.html

stunster August 3, 2006 - 2:47am

...here (links to html page - report can be accessed from there in html or pdf format).

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 10:36am

Putrajaya, Malaysia | August 3

AP - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis was to destroy Israel, Iranian state media reported.

In a speech during an emergency meeting of Muslim leaders in Malaysia, Ahmadinejad also called for an immediate cease-fire to end the fighting between Israel and the Iranian-back group Hezbollah. "Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented," Ahmadinejad said, according to state-run television in a report posted on its Web site.

The Islamic world's biggest bloc on Thursday demanded that the United Nations implement an immediate cease-fire in Lebanon and investigate what it called flagrant human rights violations by Israel.

[Comment: I'm guessing that means that any diplomacy aimed at a larger resolution won't include Iran? On the receiving end of reporting like this, the Israeli public opinion is a lot more contextualized. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 7:44am

I looked for the call for the elimination of Israel and extermination of Israelis and I couldn't find it. I see a call for "elimination of the Zionist regime". Maybe I need a "special decoder ring" so I can see it clearer?

I thought the Bush Administration had set an example everybody that "regime change" was not only legal and justifiable but much more fashionable and hip than diplomacy, and that every kid on the block should try it to the full extent of their ability?

Escher Sketch August 3, 2006 - 12:04pm

If this is characteristic of what the Israeli population is getting as a regular diet (and I think there's some truth to such a characterization), the huge disconnect between what they think is a just war and what much of the rest of the world thinks is a lot more readily explicable.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 12:13pm

in not letting Israelis explore the oval where Israeli and Arab "acceptable end states" overlap.

I strongly suspect those people profit from arms manufacture and financing.

edited to add - goofed by saying "Arab", obviously it's broader than that, but "Islam" doesn't quite fit either

Escher Sketch August 3, 2006 - 12:20pm

Iran: Only Solution Is Israel's Destruction

August 3, 2006 8:00 a.m. EST

Ryan R. Jones - All Headline News Correspondent
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (AHN) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Thursday said the only true solution to the Middle East Arab-Israeli conflict is the destruction of the Jewish state.

Ahmadinejad is in Malaysia for an emergency summit of Muslim leaders to discuss ongoing fighting between Israel and Hezbollah.

In remarks carried by Iran's state-run media, Ahmadinejad declared, "The primary medicine for the problems of the region and the world is the annihilation of the Zionist regime."

He urged all Muslim nations to "discontinue their overt and covert ties with the fake Zionist regime immediately and isolate the US, Britain and other governments that support Israel." Failure to do so would incur Allah's wrath, the president warned.

On Tuesday Ahmadinejad told a rally in Iran that Hezbollah "is the standard-bearer of the resistance of all the monotheistic peoples, of the seekers of justice, and of the free people," and said the Lebanese terror group is spearheading efforts that will ultimately lead to Israel's demise.

He went on to question whether or not Israel's Jews are actually human beings.

"Who are they? Where did they come from? Are they human beings? 'They are like cattle, nay, more misguided.' A bunch of bloodthirsty barbarians. Next to them, all the criminals of the world seem righteous."
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004419900



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 12:18pm

Time he took a dirt-nap.

Escher Sketch August 3, 2006 - 12:22pm

must be time for Kim to come up with some whoppers too. ;)



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 12:25pm

Beirut | August 3

AFP - Israel launched fresh air strikes on Beirut on Thursday after a lull of several days, while UN powers inched toward agreement on a Security Council resolution to end the three-week-old conflict.

Premier Ehud Olmert reiterated in a newspaper interview that Israel would not halt its offensive against Hezbollah guerrillas in south Lebanon until an international force of some 15,000 combat-ready troops was deployed there.

The difficulty of assembling such a force was highlighted when the United Nations postponed a meeting of potential troop-contributing countries for a second time.

Malaysia, chair of the 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference, said "the international community is in paralysis" and called on Muslim countries meeting in Kuala Lumpur to contribute troops to a UN force for Lebanon.

Explosions lit up the night sky over the Lebanese capital as aircraft circled overhead, the first such strikes on the battered city since Israel declared a partial bombing lull on Sunday.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 7:48am

Semantically fascinating. A ceasefire that Israel declares and then instantly abrogates becomes a "partial bombing lull".

Escher Sketch August 3, 2006 - 12:08pm

Leila Hatoum | Beirut | August 3

The Daily Star (Beirut) - Three foreign ministers visiting Lebanon on Wednesday agreed that there should be an immediate cease-fire as a first step to ending the Israeli assault on this country. Foreign ministers from Spain, Jordan and Egypt held meetings with Lebanon's three top officials on Wednesday before leaving Beirut to continue their efforts to end the 22-day-old conflict.

Spain's Miguel Angel Moratinos was to be in Damascus later Wednesday as a representative of the European Union in the first visit of an EU envoy to Syria since March.

Moratinos said he would meet with Syria's top officials, including President Bashar Assad, and that "Syria has a constructive role" to play in the latest Middle East crisis.

Unlike his Egyptian and Jordanian counterparts, Moratinos did not meet with Lebanese President Emile Lahoud, but instead held talks with Speaker Nabih Berri and Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 7:51am

Two people were killed and four others were seriously wounded in a rocket barrage on Acre Thursday afternoon. According to reports, the casualties were all outdoors during the barrage.

In addition, a rocket directly hit a home in the city, while several cars were damaged in the barrage, police said.

MDA reported that, in total, eight wounded were evacuated to hospital.

A total of 60 rockets were fired at northern Israel on Thursday. No casualties were reported outside of Acre, but two houses in Ma'alot and Kefar Vradim were heavily damaged after direct hits.

Rockets also hit communities near Ma'alot, in addition to Kiryat Shmona, Nahariya and the Golan Heights.

One of the barrages was fired at about 2 a.m. marking the first time Hizbullah had fired on Israel at night since the start of the conflict. There were no reports of casualties or damage.

On Wednesday, northern Israel found itself pummeled by Hizbullah fire after a few comparatively quiet days. One person was killed and at least 11 wounded as a result of the more than 200 rockets that rained down.

52-year-old David Martin Lelchook was killed on Wednesday afternoon while riding his bicycle in Kibbutz Sa'ar, near Nahariya, after a rocket scored a direct hit on one of the kibbutz homes. The death marked the first fatality since rockets began raining down all over the North on Wednesday morning after a relative lull in rocket attacks for two days.

Bringing another city under Hizbullah's sights, A Khabar-1 rocket landed near Beit She'an Wednesday. Israel, which claims the rocket is Iranian-made, confirmed the hit and said at least seven people were wounded.

Beit Shean is about 70 kilometers (42 miles) south of the Lebanese border and marks the farthest town to date to come under fire.

Sully August 3, 2006 - 10:17am



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 10:23am

...link here.

[Comment: Note that the text seems to have changed. It seems to be pretty common on the Israeli sites to have multiple write-throughs, significantly changing the text over various iterations, all referenced as the same story. It irritates the archivist in me - fortunately my inner archivist is pretty small. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 10:44am

The IDF inquiry into the Kana incident in which civilians were killed as a building collapsed released its final conclusions Thursday morning.

Two missiles, the only one of which exploded, hit the building on July 30. The army said that they had operated according to information that "the building was not inhabited by civilians and was being used as a hiding place for terrorists." Had they known that civilians were in the building, the attack would not have been carried out.

The IDF spokesperson noted that the building had been targeted only after residents had been warned to evacuate through various media, and that the building was adjacent to areas from which rockets had been launched towards Israel. Other buildings in the area had been targeted with no civilian casualties.

Sully August 3, 2006 - 10:20am

...here. (From the Jerusalem Post).

[Comment: Someone's going to have to explain to me how it is that one writes a definitive report of findings without actually setting foot on the scene. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 10:40am

Sorry about forgetting to add the links.

Yeah - Seems strange to have a definitive report already. Likely rushed in order to make the news cycle. Then again, if they are able to review all of the data they had at the time, then they can definitively report on their decision making process and root cause of their error.

In regards to the HRA report on the killing of civillians, if one assumes that the Israelis DON'T want to kill civillians since for no better reason than it hurts them from a PR perspective, can their intelligence be that bad that they are unintentionally killing that many civillians? How do they collect their intelligence? Do they have informants on the ground? Could they be receiving disinformation in order to get them to strike civillian targets. We know from Hezbollah's own admission that they see the deaths of civillians on both sides as working to their advantage.

Sully August 3, 2006 - 11:00am

that their intelligence in southern Lebanon may well be bad at this level. Not even the Israeli justifications of these attacks have claimed that they were aimed at top-level Hezbollah officials, even given the very large numbers of houses attacked, and Israel almost certainly doesn't have the extensive network of informers and spies in southern Lebanon that it does in Gaza and the West Bank. (A fair number of their SLA allies moved to Israel when Israel pulled out of the area: one wonders if perhaps they're relying of their memories to some extent in targetting.)

In other cases, there are simply classes of targets that are hit that may be civilian. Thus, according to the HRW report, village leaders in southern Lebanon were told to evacuate... but that they could not use motorcycles, vans or trucks to do so (p. 35 of the report). In other cases, that warning wasn't given. This begs the question, of course, of how Lebanese who can't afford their own cars were supposed to evacuate... especially given that a _failure_ to evacuate seems, to the IDF, to render those civilians legitimate targets. In addition, those classes of vehicles have been hit very hard, and it appears that the IDF is simply shooting at vehicles that aren't private cars... as well as a lot of private cars. In cases where that specific warning wasn't givem it's highly likely that poor Lebanese are going to try and escape in communal transport.

ScottM August 3, 2006 - 11:38am

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/08/03/story270604.html

August 2

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert ignited a political firestorm by linking the conflict in Lebanon to his plan to withdraw from much of the West Bank.

Some Israeli West Bank settlers were so outraged they said they would refuse to fight.

Olmert later retreated from a face-off with his domestic opponents, saying in a statement he was focusing on Lebanon and appealing for “complete unity of the army and the home front to win this difficult war” with the Hezbollah militia.

In his first interview since fighting broke out three weeks ago, Olmert said yesterday the outcome would boost his proposal to separate from the Palestinians in the West Bank – unilaterally, if necessary.

The plan, which was the core of Olmert’s platform in elections in March, calls for an Israel withdrawal from most of the West Bank while consolidating large Israeli settlement blocs, effectively drawing a permanent border. Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan in the 1967 Mideast War.

Olmert’s domestic programme was put on hold after Hezbollah guerrillas attacked an Israeli border position on July 12, capturing two soldiers and killing three. The attack prompted a massive Israeli response.

“I’ll surprise you,” Olmert said. “I genuinely believe that the outcome of the present turmoil and the emergence of a new order that will provide more stability and will defeat the forces of terror, will help create the necessary environment that will allow me ... to create a new momentum between us and the Palestinians.”

“We want to separate from the Palestinians. We want to help create a reality that will allow the Palestinians to fulfil their lifelong dream of having an independent state alongside the state of Israel in a contiguous territory,” he said.

“All this has to be done. I’m ready to do it. I’m ready to cope with these demands. It’s not easy, it’s very difficult, but we are elected to our positions to do things and not sit idle,” he added.

Israeli settlers and right-wing politicians exploded in anger over what they called Olmert’s manipulation of the Lebanon conflict for his political agenda.

“Olmert has lost his way. He has shot soldiers in the back in the midst of the assault,” settler leader Pinhas Wallerstein was quoted as saying.

The opposition Likud Party said Olmert’s comment “drives a wedge deep into the heart of the consensus” over the Lebanon war.

snip........

stonehouse August 3, 2006 - 11:32am

“I’ll surprise you,” Olmert said. “I genuinely believe that the outcome of the present turmoil and the emergence of a new order that will provide more stability and will defeat the forces of terror, will help create the necessary environment that will allow me ... to create a new momentum between us and the Palestinians.”

Usually these visions do not materialize.

-- Happy fishing in ocean of noise!

Gandalf August 3, 2006 - 4:20pm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2810053861134883693

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2251315996663896551&q=Beirut+bombed

Sully August 3, 2006 - 11:36am
Caribdude August 3, 2006 - 12:46pm

In northern Israel, seven people were killed Thursday in Katyusha rocket strikes.

Earlier Thursday, IDF reserve soldiers operating in southwestern Lebanon killed four Hezbollah gunmen. They also destroyed two rocket launchers and a warehouse in which rockets were stored.

The IDF is planning a new defensive line in southern Lebanon that will be six to eight kilometers north of the Israeli border.

By 2 P.M., IDF troops had established positions overlooking 11 south Lebanese towns and villages up to six kilometers north of the Israeli border.

The area that the IDF is bringing under its control is effectively the same security zone it held until the pullout from Lebanon in May 2000.

Israel Air Force warplanes renewed strikes against Hezbollah strongholds in the battered outskirts of the Lebanese capital in the early hours of Thursday, as well as on Lebanon's northern border with Syria and in the eastern Bekaa Valley.

Lebanese security officials said an IAF missile slammed into a house in the border village of Taibeh on Thursday morning, killing a family of three.

A missile crashed into the two-story house of Hani Abdo Marmar, killing him instantly along with his wife and child, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to make statements to the media.

The three victims were buried under the rubble of their house, which was flattened, witnesses said.

More than an hour after the strike, the Lebanese Red Cross was unable to reach Taibeh to pull out the bodies, because of fierce fighting in the village, witnesses said.

Another house was hit in the south Lebanese village of Qleia. An Associated Press reporter saw two IAF missiles slam into the house, igniting a fire that sent a column of heavy black smoke up from the site. The frame of the house remained standing, but it was burning and gutted.

IDF artillery shells soared into nearby hills sporadically, sometimes as many as 15 a minute.

In the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, fighter jets struck an ambulance working for a local Muslim group, Lebanese security officials said. They also hit the village of Zarariyeh, about 10 kilometers away, destroying roads and some deserted houses there.

Six missiles struck roads in the southern villages of Mlita and Ein Bouswar in the Iqlim al Tuffah province, a highland apple-growing region where Hezbollah is believed to have offices and bases, security officials said. IAF warplanes returned to the province hours later for additional raids.

Witnesses said at least four missiles hit south Beirut, a Shiite Muslim sector that has been repeatedly hit by Israel since fighting began three weeks ago. Lebanese television said the attacks targeted several buildings in a Hezbollah compound in the al-Ruweis neighborhood, which had been hit several times before.

An IDF soldier was killed in fierce gunfights in south Lebanon on Wednesday night, as ground forces continued battling with Hezbollah militants near the border. Fifteen IDF soldiers were lightly wounded in battles on Thursday morning and evacuated to hospital in Israel.

Witnesses said at least four explosions reverberated through Beirut as missiles hit Dahieh, a Shiite Muslim suburb that has been repeatedly shelled by Israel since fighting began three weeks ago.

Residents heard the impact of a large explosion about every five minutes starting at 2:30 A.M., as missiles apparently targeted areas close to Hezbollah's headquarters in Dahieh, a neighborhood to the south of the capital that has been partly flattened by air strikes in previous weeks.

It was the first air raid against the Lebanese capital's suburb in almost a week.

Lebanese television said the attacks targeted several buildings in a Hezbollah compound of Dahieh's al-Ruweis neighborhood. The compound, which includes a center for religious teaching, has been attacked in earlier raids and sustained sizeable damage.

Sergeant Adi Cohen, 18, from Hadera was killed and two other soldiers were seriously wounded in the fighting Wednesday. Cohen will be buried at the military section in Hadera cemetery at 5 P.M. Thursday.

Lebanon: More than 900 dead
Israel's three-week-old offensive against Hezbollah in Lebanon has killed more than 900 people and wounded 3,000, with a third of the casualties children under 12, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said Thursday.

Siniora, in a video message to a summit of leaders of the Muslim world, added that a quarter of the population, or one million people, had been displaced

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746085.html

Sully August 3, 2006 - 12:50pm

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2500

‘Trust Allah, Not Nasrallah’: The Hizballah Crisis Reshapes Lebanese Politics

Sully August 3, 2006 - 1:14pm

on Al-manar, lbc, and newtv... now
__________________

Earlier

Al Manar claims to have launched about 300 rockets today

18:46 Third IDF soldier dies in south Lebanon fighting Thursday (Haaretz)
Number of IDF soldiers killed in Lebanon rises to 3

The number of soldiers killed in IDF operations in the Lebanese village of Rajamin has risen to three. A soldier who was seriously injured and later died of his injuries in the Rambam hospital. His family has been notified. (Efrat Weiss)

(08.03.06, 18:58)

YNET

17:58 Jordanian king says Hezbollah heroes in Arab eyes, rebukes Israel (Reuters)
__________________

في حديث متلفز مع قناة الجزيرة قال مسؤول العلاقات الاعلامية في حزب الله الدكتور حسين رحال أن وقف اطلاق النار يعني انسحاب العدو عن آخر شبر من ارضنا ووقف العدوان وخروج اخر جندي صهيوني من ارضنا ولا معنى لوقف النار وبقاء الاحتلال على ارضنا والطبيعي عندها ان من حق اي لبناني مقاومة الاحتلال.
المصدر:قناة الجزيرة. بتاريخ 03/08/2006 الساعة 16:18

Translation: Dr. Hassan Rahal media communication manager in Al-Manar said to Al-Jazeera, a cease fire to us will mean a total withdrawl from our Land, Stopping of the aggression, and withdrawl of the last Israeli soldier otherwise a cease fire means nothing.
source: Al-Jazeera

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP)

Hezbollah's chief spokesman has said his group will not agree to a cease-fire until all Israeli troops leave Lebanon.

Source: Associated Press

jerusalem post: 81 soldiers and 28 civilians being treated in north israel hospitals
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17:42 IDF: 13 Hezbollah guerillas killed in fighting in southern Lebanon (Haaretz)

18.24: الإعلام الإسرائيلي يتساءل عن أنّ البحث لم يعد يقتصر عن كيفية النصر بل عن حجم الخسارة التي سنخرج بها

18.19: التلفزيون الإسرائيلي يقول أنّ عدد القتلى الإسرائيليين يرتفع الى ثمانية جراء القصف الصاروخي لحزب الله

18.08: إسرائيل تتحدث عن إقامتها منطقة أمنية من 20 قرية وبلدة وحزب الله ينفي ذلك

tayyar.org

[translation]
18.24 Israeli Information wonder that the search is no longer limited on how victory, but the size of the loss will come out of

18.19 Israeli television said that the death toll rises to eight after missile attack by Hezbollah

18.08 Israel speaks of making Security zone of 20 villages and hizbollah deny that
__________________

19:52 IAF drops leaflets over 3 Beirut neighborhoods warning residents to evacuate (AP)

20:06 Peretz to IDF: Prepare to seize all Lebanese territory south of Litani River (Haaretz)
__________________

stunster August 3, 2006 - 1:52pm

for what it's worth--I'll try to get a better translation soon....

Mr. Hasan Nasrallah : "If Israel bombed capital Vsenkesaf capital entity angry" Ground-confrontations are in the fourth week broader and more violent - Fighting continues in the front lines - Zionists surprise encounters - Hezbollah waging fierce battles with the Israeli army brigades - Tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers that are engaged in battles and the human element of Hezbollah and stop providing Ivajehm This is a miracle of military - The most important two things at the field level : the human element of resistance fighting faith and sacrifice to the last rounds. When the enemy strikes Bdpapath mechanisms and the movement becomes slow - An enemy tanks and armour become slow movement - Israel adopt a policy of clear and blatant lies in the context of psychological warfare - The enemy is trying to triumph Division : There is no site named Ibad called enemy control - Is that we fight in our point of what we have exhausted our - Not to fight a battle geographically, but Anhak enemy : the way we fight gangs and the introduction of the enemy within our towns Israeli warship - Emphasize that the missile frigate resistance against Israeli opposite images - We have the technical means to confirm that the enemy was hiding, Last two days - Missile shelling on the northern colonies continued more frequently, and in the last two days we have been 300 rocket arrived one, It is a type of Jew, the city Nissan - Against enemy air armistice stopped bombing two settlements - Nasrallah describes Balgbi Olmert and Shimon Peres Balkhrv : arrogance, Peres and Olmert Ghlema Meneahma of approaching the truth - Missile attack would continue as a kind Command-resistance has full control of the initiative and to manage the battle - The high number of missiles were fired at settlements in the last two days was intentional - Israelis were injured disappointed because their leaders deceive them that they have spent on the effectiveness of the weapon of Hizbullah and abilities - If Israel bombed capital Vsenkesaf capital entity angry - Shelling colonies reaction, not really - At any time decide to stop Israeli attacks against villages, stop bombing colonies - Israeli army deliberately do Lidguetoa the Qana massacre - Bombing civilians is wrong intelligence information, but also demonstrates the moral enemy In the twenty - Baalbek and abduction of people in targeting guilt of the accused man named Hassan Nasrallah is a deficit of intelligence Political rift - Held Olmert said he wants to prove that great leader, and has succeeded in killing and destruction. But at the political level is the head of government foolishness with the Zionist entity. Olmert proved that - which I do, and the worst foolishness head of the government in the Israeli entity - The war proved that the Israeli army is a huge only able to kill only - Israel would not be able to eradicate Hezbollah and the resistance movements in Palestine, the resistance is not regular armies, but the people insured - Bring Bush and his administration responsible for what is happening in Lebanon today Invites since the war, while Olmert and his government understand tools - It was barbarism of the Israeli army confirmed that Olmert is a tool of the Americans, Bush and Rice America - which was preventing the cessation of aggression - Alasra'elion mere operational tools in this war - Lebanon will be Americans or Israelis nor any of the sites in the Middle East wants the new Bush administration Lebanon, the Lebanese - which will be a new Middle Eastern sites not on the United States Trahnoa Allamrikeh - Those who love and want to help Lebanon say : houses demolished not because of the tsunami or earthquake. but Israel from the US to do so will not Ttatewa with Lebanon as a good or compassion. important to you to stop the aggression, you are here (in America) Lthafza Krasekm. In the new Middle East will not keep you a brochure and regulations because America wants to divide the region cantons

stunster August 3, 2006 - 2:39pm

Israeli's are disappointed that Ohlmert and his administration lied to them
-Israel threatening Beirut!! its all psychological warfare as all of Lebanon is being bombed.
-I will not talk about Haifa or Beyond Haifa. If they bomb Beirut we will bomb Tel Aviv
__________________

We detroyed their tanks, another warship, Olmert is full of bull, he lied to his people, because he claimed he destroyed HA, but next day we showed him we are alive and kicking.

International Community "be a man" should stand up and demand for a cease fire. If Israel fire at Beirut we will fire at Tel Aviv.
__________________
.

the most important things are:
Israel lies too much, and believes the lies it spreads
we hit the israeli warship 2 days ago, and this is true and confirmed
If Israel Hits Beirut, we'll hit Tel Aviv
Olmert is a loser (politically talking and army talking) among all the Leaders who were in charge of Israel...
Bush controls Olmert, and this last does what his master orders him to do
If israel enters Lebanon trough the land, this would be easier to attack them (we're not an organized army we use: 7arb chaware3 wa 3isabat ways to defend and attack)
etc

"SHN said that that HB stopped thrusting rockets into israel coz of the 48hrs temporary cease-fire" which leads to his pt that "if israel stops bombing lebanon, we will stoping throwing rockets into occupied palestine"

Victory will be Lebanon's. Lebanon the Nation, Lebanon the Whole, Lebanon the Resistance
__________________

A comment from a Lebanese observer:

he was so clear, and very confident...and if u were able to see him, u would've known wht i really mean.
he was very calm, witty, and honest....
and me among lots of others, who keep pursuing the international media and politics can assure that his speech is very accurate

stunster August 3, 2006 - 2:58pm

civilians Thursday afternoon. Three were killed instantly and a two more died of their wounds in the Israeli port of Acre north of Haifa, 2 were killed at Maonah near Maalot. At least 22 civilians injured, 8 seriously.

Kiryat Shemona suffers severe damage from battering by systematic rocket fire from the bombing. The latest attack swept the entire Galilee from west to east, including Safed, Tiberias and Carmiel.

Northern Israel was hit by several score rockets during the morning, the first 10 landing just outside Kiryat Shemona after Hizballah’s record 200-plus rocket barrage Wednesday carried on into the night over Kiryat Shemona, Maalot and the Galilee panhandle.

Wednesday, David Lalchuk, 52, was killed at Kibbutz Saar near Nahariya.

In Acre, a man was seriously by a direct hit to his car. Northern Israel was hit by several score rockets during the morning, the first 10 landing just outside Kiryat Shemona after Hizballah’s record 200-plus rocket barrage Wednesday carried on into the night over Kiryat Shemona, Maalot and the Galilee panhandle. Wednesday, David Lalchuk, 52, was killed at Kibbutz Saar near Nahariya, 120 people were injured as the rockets landed on dozens of towns and villages in the region north of Haifa.

Hizballah’s longer-range, heavier Khaibar-1 which has a 100-kilo warhead and 120 km range, was used to reach Beit Shean, Afula and the northern West Bank, Hizballah’s deepest strikes yet.

DEBKAfile reports: Hizballah fired from redeployed rocket launchers at Bint Jibail after the village was taken by the IDF – until an Israeli air strike destroyed it. Hizballah redoubled its rocket offensive Wednesday after a 30-hour lull as a rejoinder to Israeli statements. Israeli PM Ehud Olmert said the IDF had knocked out most of Hizballah’s infrastructure. Chief of staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz said the Baalbek commando raid proved that Israel forces could reach any point in Lebanon.

August 3, 2006, 6:46 PM (GMT+02:00)
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3033

COMMENT: As noted yesterday in my comment, just because you take a village does not mean it is secured until all tunnels have been cleared. Hezballah fighters just waited for the IDF unit to move on before popping out of their holes, setting up launchers and firing rockets. If that air strike was not followed up by a comprehensive sweep on the ground by IDF infantry, the same will happen (or an ambush) tomorrow.

Quite right that a trap does not work unless the victim encounters it. BUT...when there is no alternative to entering the trap zone, you have to do the best you can to counter the trap or neutralize it. Interesting that extensive use has not yet been made by the IDF of flame throwers and napalm to clear tunnel complexes as the U.S. did in both WW2 against the Japanese tunnelers or in Vietnam. That is the only effective way to ensure tunnel warrens are completely neutralized as breathable air is destroyed by the fire. But the risk of war crimes accusations may be deterring the IDF from their use. No doubt Hezballah would start stashing women and children in the tunnels if napalm and flamethrowers are used.

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor August 3, 2006 - 2:09pm

Interesting that extensive use has not yet been made by the IDF of flame throwers and napalm to clear tunnel complexes as the U.S. did in both WW2 against the Japanese tunnelers or in Vietnam.

Japan didn't surrender until the US dropped not one, but two, nuclear bombs. And the US lost in Vietnam.

stunster August 3, 2006 - 6:27pm

'Patience is our watchword'
Audio: Ghaith Abdul-Ahad gained exclusive access to Hizbullah forces in south Lebanon. He reports from Tyre on the strategies and beliefs of this highly organised and secretive militia group. (5min 10s)

Audio

Explainer: Tactics of insurgency



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 2:12pm

21:06 Fifth person dies of wounds incurred in Acre rocket attack (Haaretz)

20:46 Nasrallah: If Israel bombs Beirut, we`ll bomb Tel Aviv (Haaretz)

20:39 Nasrallah: We will launch missiles into cities south of Haifa (Channel 10)

20:37 Nasrallah: We will continue to launch rockets, with even greater force (Channel 10)

20:34 Nasrallah: Hezbollah fighters` ability to hold back IDF troops is a miracle (AP)

20:32 U.S. State Department hopes for UN resolution by Friday (Reuters)

20:31 Nasrallah: Hezbollah, IDF ground battles now more widespread, violent (AP)

stunster August 3, 2006 - 2:47pm

The world awoke Sunday to the news that an Israeli airstrike killed 57 Lebanese civilians, leading Israel to stop airstrikes for 2 days - but evidence indicates the "massacre" may have been a fraud.

The supposed massacre caused a major turnabout in world diplomacy. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suddenly canceled her plans to fly to Beirut, saying "my work towards a ceasefire is really here [in Jerusalem] today." The implication was clearly that the onus was now upon Israel. French President Jacques Chirac condemned Israel's "unjustified action which demonstrates more than ever the need for an immediate ceasefire," Jordan's King Abdullah called it an "ugly crime," and other world leaders echoed these sentiments.

Though Israel emphasized that Hizbullah was to blame for waging its rocket war against Israel from within a civilian population, Foreign Ministry officials repeated their "deep regret at the loss of innocent life in the campaign against Hizbullah," and were forced to promise a "thorough and comprehensive examination."

However, the incident may have been all one big fraud, staged by Arab elements for the world media in order to lead precisely to the situation described above.

The central piece of evidence leading to this conclusion is the fact, mentioned by IDF officials from the very beginning, that the building collapsed a full seven hours after the Israel Air Force bombing. Why, then, would the residents inside not have been evacuated in the meantime? As Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel of the Israeli Air Force told reporters Sunday night, “It is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it.” Without additional evidence, Eshel merely left open the possibility that Hizbullah terrorists, or explosives they left behind, caused the explosion.

"Indeed," writes Robert Spencer for FrontPageMagazine, "it strains credulity that not only did these Lebanese civilians remain in a house that had been bombed for eight hours, but peacefully went to sleep in it after the bombing – since the victims were all apparently sleeping, despite continuing Israeli air bombardment in the area, when the building collapsed."

Gen. Eshel also said that the building was used by Hizbullah to store explosives. This was supported by a letter by Dr. Mounir Herzallah, a southern Lebanese Shiite, who wrote that Hizbullah terrorists came to his town, dug a munitions depot and then built a school and a residence directly over it.

In addition, as Reuven Koret writes for IsraelInsider, the bombing of the area occurred in three waves. The first bombs, according to CNN correspondent Brent Sadler, did not hit the building in question, but rather landed "20 or 30 meters" away. The second strike hit targets further away, and the third strike, around 7:30 in the morning, landed over 400 meters away. The first reports of a collapsed building arrived a half-hour later.

Another CNN correspondent, Ben Wedeman, noted that there was a larger crater next to the building. He observed that the roof of the building was intact and that the building appeared not to have collapsed as a result of the Israeli strike.

Thus, the building was used to store explosives, was apparently not destroyed by the bombing, and sheltered dozens of women and children throughout a night of bombing. The identity of the victims was also not clear, except that they were not the original occupants of the building; a National Public Radio correspondent reported that they had left. "The victims were non-residents who chose to shelter in the building that night," Koret writes, and who were "'too poor' to leave the town, one resident told CNN's Wedeman. Who were these people?"

As an aside, the hospital in Tyre, Lebanon, and Human Rights Watch both reported today that 28 people were killed in the Kafr Kana bombing, and not twice that number, as originally reported.

Other facts brought by Koret and Spencer:

* Sometime after dawn a call went out to journalists and rescue workers to come to the scene. Though Hizbullah has been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there.

* Lebanese rescue teams did not start evacuating the building until after the camera crews came. The absence of a real rescue effort was explained by saying that equipment was lacking. There were no scenes of live or injured people being extracted.

* There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted, concluding that the victims appeared to have died while they were sleeping - despite the thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from one opening in the collapsed structure, and journalists were not allowed near it.

* Rescue workers carrying the victims on stretchers occasionally flipped up the blankets so that cameras could show the faces and bodies of the dead. But, Koret noted, the ashen-gray faces of the victims gave cause to think that the bodies looked like they had been dead for days.

* Photos of the rescue operation transmitted all over the world are "extremely suspicious," Spencer writes, citing work by EU Referendum showing numerous anomalies in the photos. "Most notably," he writes, "the dating of the various photos suggests that the same bodies were paraded before reporters on different occasions, each time as if they had just been pulled from the rubble. [In addition], some workers are wearing different gear in different photos, yet clearly carrying the same corpse."

* The Christian Lebanese (French-language) website LIBANOSCOPIE has charged that Hizbullah staged the entire incident in order to stimulate calls for a ceasefire, thereby staving off its destruction by Israel and Lebanese plans to rid themselves of this terrorist plague.

Spencer concludes, "Americans and Westerners are not used to dealing with carefully orchestrated and large-scale deception of this kind. It is time that it be recognized as a weapon of warfare, and an extremely potent one at that."

16:05 Aug 03, '06 / 9 Av 5766
by Hillel Fendel
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=109072

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor August 3, 2006 - 2:57pm

Not sure how credible all of those sources are cited in this report, but there is a precedent of this sort of thing, by both parties. If true, it won't likely make a difference, IMHO, as people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts and will dismiss contrary data as fabricated.
If Hezbollah did actually commite such an act of deception they should win an award for how masterfully they pulled it off. My personal hunch is that itthe building was hit by an IDF missle, but Hezbollah was really really pleased about the whole thing.

Sully August 3, 2006 - 3:13pm

This report has all the hallmarks of an Israeli propganda/psyops operation, doesn't it?

As Candy so rightly insists, beware of bogus and fake news on all sides.

For what it's worth, and I will need to check this once a full and accurate translation is available, Nasrallah appears to have claimed that HA has 'technical' means of confirming that they hit the patrol boat on Monday.

We'll see what transpires.

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:29pm

says the IDF investigation was a whitewash.

But even the IDF admits one of their bombs hit the building. The building may have collapsed later, but if so, it surely did so because of the earlier bomb, no?

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:20pm

...I've ever read to the importance of ground truth. The "evidence" supposedly indictive of fraud in this one is, IMNSHO complete speculation and not worth the electrons to propagate. The central pillar of their contention, that the building did not collapse until much after the strike, is not something that they can substantiate. A fuller quote from General Eshel reads:

"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."

The IDF needs to take its lumps on this one. The preponderance of evidence in the public domain indicates they messed up very badly, and if they had something definitive and better than this that cleared them, I'd expect it to be getting pretty wide play.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 5:08pm

now that was damn clear, intense, vigorous, witty, wise, honest, and hypnotizing!

guys , i wonder, are the jewish people in israel watching this? is their pathetic government allowing them to see it, like SHN said? i wonder, if they do hear wht he says literally, wouldn't they see the naked truth ?wouldn't they become aware and driven against their deceitful leaders?
--------
Where are all the people that 3 months ago where promoting the idea that israel is nice and wants peace and wanted to live peaceully next to us and we are fools if we don't allow a peace to happen with israelis and we should take off all HA and his arsenal away and let israelis live happily ever after with us? I can not remember their nickname but someone by the name af achkalan or sth.

History over and over proves that no peace with such a mob. Murderers and they only listen and respect strong and powerful and fearfull statements.
----------------

everyone needs to answer to him just as much as he needs to answer to them.
__________________
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Actually, EVERYONE will need to answer to both GMA and SHN: they are the giants of this country, the real patriots who are defending Lebanon's unity and existance with everything they have.

I would like to hear, after Victory, the answers of many so called leaders in Lebanon who managed to do nothing but try to downplay Lebanon's interests since Feb 14, 2005.

Need I remind you of the Israeli ambassador to the UN quoting Marwan Hamadeh and Saad Hariri?
__________________
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Also, Whomever is playing the american card or is indeed favoring it, should do some big recalculations. I hate american policy as much as i hate Israelis barbaric act. American Policy is biased and to all those in lebanon whom thought that american policies have made them strong now it is time for them to pay and they should pay mostly by being marginalized politcially if possible even shut up for good. I am not going to mention names or anything like that cause even a 3 years old child can spot them in a crowd.

Long live GMA and SHN, and this war is already won against all enemies (internal and externals)

Al Nasr Aaaat Aaaat Aaaaat, It is lebanon you stupids.....
__________________

------------------I didn't really get the thing about fog in tyre :S

Ok ill explain because i understood it .in a way...
he said that when hezbollah destroyed the first warship sa3er 5, israel first denied, but hezbollah was able to take pictures , so with these pictures present , israel cant deny that it was hit...so israel admitted that the ship was hit...

And now when hezbollah hit the second ship, iisrael denied quickly, but hezbollah this time couldnt take pictures because there was fog and the ship was far in the sea ( the ships went deaper in the see a week ago) therefore this time israel will not admit it, but hezbollah confirms 100% that he did hit it..No doubt..

hope u understood
-----------------------------

On CNN they showed a bit of Nasralla's speech as the Israeli ambassador was talking, and when asked what he thought, all he had to say over and over again was that Hizbollah use women and children as human shield and that they are cowards and terrorist and they control all of Lebanon in between all civilians and that is why it is harder to destroy them. Also he said that the difference between hizballa and them is that hizb celebrate everytime they kill one israeli civilian and they grive when they "mistakenly" kill one lebanese civilian ... and on and on...
Also, he kept highlighting thta Israel is a democracy who is defending themselves and that ever since they left in 2000, hizbollah have been attacking them on and off.

it's funny how everyone believe this propaganda by Israelis. He kept blaming Nasralla for everything.
__________________
---------------------------------

Hizballah couldn't get a photo of the bombed ship because it was far & there was plenty of fog in the coast of Tyr.
__________________

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:42pm

IDF will ruin Lebanon's infrastructure!!!! as if they have spared any of our infrastructure... we have a couple of bridges left let them go ahead and bomb them.
---------------

the zionists will lose prestige once their terror capital is bombarded, they are freaking out.

-----------------

I fear they will be even more united, and would get even more international support!

------------------

If in Israel's view the price of destroying Tel Aviv is equal to the very few bridges left standing after their barbarian aggression, then the Israelis have really lost their minds! Do you think that this is a winning proposition for them?

I think that the count down of this war has started with a clear looser (in military terms): Israel and its IDF! Unless the Israelis decide to run forward and open the game by including Syria in their attacks!

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:08pm

Israel has been leafletting south Beirut telling everyone to get out. Are they perhaps aiming for a Dresden-style operation?

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:44pm

14-Year-Old Nasrallah Recounts Ordeal During Baalbeck Commando Operation
Nasrallah is a bad surname to have in Lebanon, as Israel tries to break Hizbullah.
Fourteen-year-old Mohammed Hassan Nasrallah found out the hard way when Israeli airborne commandos seized his father and four other men in eastern Lebanon, even though they are unrelated to Hizbullah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.

Mohammed was asleep, together with his father, mother, brothers and sisters, when Israeli elite troops broke into his home on August 2, breaking the doors and shattering the windows of their house in Hay al-Osseira near the eastern city of Baalbeck.

"They started shouting, they took us out one after the other and tied our hands behind our backs," he told an Agence France Presse correspondent in the Bekaa Valley.

Hay al-Osseira, located at the eastern entrance of Baalbeck, a main Hizbullah stronghold, had been abandoned by its residents following Israeli bombardments.

But Mohammed's father, Hassan Diab Nasrallah, did not want to leave his grocery because he was afraid of thieves.

But Wednesday's night visitors did not want to steal food.

"About a dozen soldiers broke into the house. They put the women and children on one side without tying them up. They placed the men on the other side. I was with the men," Mohammed said.

Israel said 200 elite commando troops carried out the operation, the deepest ground incursion into Lebanon since the Jewish state launched its offensive on Lebanon on July 12 when Hizbullah captured two soldiers to secure a prisoner swap.

"They were shouting and mistreating us. My mother interfered and told them to have pity on the children and treat us nicely," Mohammed said.

But one of the Israelis responded: "Shut up or I will kill you," according to Mohammed, who said the serviceman also "fired shots over her head."

Mohammed was taken with his father Hassan Diab, 60, his brother Bilal, 28, the fiance of his sister Hassan al-Borgi, as well as neighbors Ahmad al-Awta, 60, and Mohammed Shakar, 50.

Escorted by a hundred soldiers, they walked for an hour and 20 minutes until they reached the helicopters which had landed in a field.

"All along the road, they were asking questions. They spoke fluent Arabic, some with an accent. They asked us if we were Hizbullah members, and if we were related to Nasrallah," Mohammed said.

The family name Nasrallah is common in Lebanon, both in Muslim and Christian communities.

But the Hizbullah chief is from the southern village of Bazourieh, and is not related to the Nasrallah family from the eastern Baalbeck region.

The Israeli soldiers boarded the men on the helicopters, then one of them turned to Mohammed and kicked him, he said.

"They untied me, kicked me in the back and told me to go away," he said.

It was 2:20 am when the helicopters flew out of the region, with the captives whom the Jewish state said were Hizbullah members.

"I started running with my slippers. There was an armed drone which was firing around me. I was not hit, but I was injured by a flying piece of rock in my back. I hid in the first empty house that I saw," he said.

When the shots ceased around 6:00 am, Mohammed left the hideout and rushed to his uncle's house in Baalbeck. He found his mother, Um Bilal, who now only has one hope: that the International Committee for the Red Cross can give her news of her husband's whereabouts.(AFP) (Photo released by Israeli Defense Forces shows special forces during a raid in Baalbeck)

Beirut, 03 Aug 06, 18:09

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&4EEAFE701C68F3D7C22571BF00532422

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:47pm

Israel has been leafletting south Beirut telling everyone to get out. Are they perhaps aiming for a Dresden-style operation?

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:48pm

Nasrallah: We'll bomb Tel Aviv if Beirut attacked

In TV address, Hizbullah leader says terror group will respond to next Israeli strike in Beirut with rockets on Tel Aviv; Israel responds: Lebanese infrastructure will be destroyed if Tel Aviv is hit
Roee Nahmias

Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah threatened to bomb Tel Aviv during a TV address Thursday night, should Israel attack in Beirut. "If you indeed do this, I say this clearly. I won't use terms I used up to now, past Haifa, but I will say clearly and in a way that is not open to interpretation: If you bomb our capital we'll bomb your capital. We'll bomb Tel Aviv and we can do this."

A senior Israeli defense source told Israel's Channel 1 that Israel will destroy Lebanon's infrastructure if Hizbullah fires rockets at Tel Aviv.

During the speech, which was aired on al-Manar TV, Nasrallah discussed the 'importance' of ground battles by Hizbullah members against IDF units: "We are fighting against very heavy pressure and are fighting battles of heroism across the whole front." He added that his organization had many anti-tank weapons.

Nasrallah branded Prime Minister Ehud Olmert a "fool" for "declaring a victory too early." "He wants to look like (Ariel) Sharon, (Yitzhak) Rabin, and (Menachem) Begin. Ask him where the accomplishments are that he promised you," Nasrallah said. He added that he was following Israeli analysts.

Nasrallah mocked the commando raid in Baalbek: "There were two landings near Baalbek and not in the heart of Baalbek. They stormed a hospital and threw a grenade. Pay attention to the great gain, to search for injured fighters who they didn’t capture during the battle. They weren't there, they kidnapped five civilians and they are hostages. This is intelligence, this is the Mossad?"

Nasrallah added, "We all remember the heroic battles. There are tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers in the field and many tanks with

them. They are facing soldiers standing with bravery and stopping the advance. The battle is still going on in front positions and it surprised the Zionists. The Israelis come to enter a village, so that Hizbullah fighters will run away, but up to now – the fighters remained to battle in the villages until the last bullet. Israel was surprised by the human factor. They are fighting against men willing to sacrifice."

This was Nasrallah's eighth television appearance since the kidnapping of soldiers on the northern border.

First Published: 08.03.06, 20:48
Latest Update: 08.03.06, 21:23

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285976,00.html

stunster August 3, 2006 - 3:51pm

At Yedioth Ahronot:

2. The time has come

to treat this as a real war and use all weaponry needed, included non-guided bombs that will take out wide swathes of real estate in Beirut and in the hills

Arie (08.03.06)

4. Teheran is a legitamate target
Canada (08.03.06)

4. Teheran is a legitamate target

If Tel Aviv is hit the next target should be Teheran - for starters.

6. Nasralah vs Olmert
Arie (08.03.06)

6. Nasralah vs Olmert

The man says the truth and I say enough is enough and lets negotiate!

Arie (08.03.06)

7. Stop this war now !!!!!!
Laurent , Tel aviv, Israel (08.03.06)

7. Stop this war now !!!!!!

stop this war olmert
ur a big lyer u and peretz !!!! new elections now !!!!

Laurent , Tel aviv, Israel

And the rest at the bottom of this page

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285976,00.html

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:03pm

See also the commments at the bottom of the page on this report:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285857,00.html

Lots of people are freaking out.

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:17pm

This is an expansion and up to the minute version of earlier posts...

now that was damn clear, intense, vigorous, witty, wise, honest, and hypnotizing!

guys , i wonder, are the jewish people in israel watching this? is their pathetic government allowing them to see it, like SHN said? i wonder, if they do hear wht he says literally, wouldn't they see the naked truth ?wouldn't they become aware and driven against their deceitful leaders?
--------
Where are all the people that 3 months ago where promoting the idea that israel is nice and wants peace and wanted to live peaceully next to us and we are fools if we don't allow a peace to happen with israelis and we should take off all HA and his arsenal away and let israelis live happily ever after with us? I can not remember their nickname but someone by the name af achkalan or sth.

History over and over proves that no peace with such a mob. Murderers and they only listen and respect strong and powerful and fearfull statements.
----------------

everyone needs to answer to him just as much as he needs to answer to them.
__________________
---------------------
Actually, EVERYONE will need to answer to both GMA and SHN: they are the giants of this country, the real patriots who are defending Lebanon's unity and existance with everything they have.

I would like to hear, after Victory, the answers of many so called leaders in Lebanon who managed to do nothing but try to downplay Lebanon's interests since Feb 14, 2005.

Need I remind you of the Israeli ambassador to the UN quoting Marwan Hamadeh and Saad Hariri?
__________________
---------------------------

Also, Whomever is playing the american card or is indeed favoring it, should do some big recalculations. I hate american policy as much as i hate Israelis barbaric act. American Policy is biased and to all those in lebanon whom thought that american policies have made them strong now it is time for them to pay and they should pay mostly by being marginalized politcially if possible even shut up for good. I am not going to mention names or anything like that cause even a 3 years old child can spot them in a crowd.

Long live GMA and SHN, and this war is already won against all enemies (internal and externals)

Al Nasr Aaaat Aaaat Aaaaat, It is lebanon you stupids.....
__________________

------------------I didn't really get the thing about fog in tyre :S

Ok ill explain because i understood it .in a way...
he said that when hezbollah destroyed the first warship sa3er 5, israel first denied, but hezbollah was able to take pictures , so with these pictures present , israel cant deny that it was hit...so israel admitted that the ship was hit...

And now when hezbollah hit the second ship, iisrael denied quickly, but hezbollah this time couldnt take pictures because there was fog and the ship was far in the sea ( the ships went deaper in the see a week ago) therefore this time israel will not admit it, but hezbollah confirms 100% that he did hit it..No doubt..

hope u understood
-----------------------------

On CNN they showed a bit of Nasralla's speech as the Israeli ambassador was talking, and when asked what he thought, all he had to say over and over again was that Hizbollah use women and children as human shield and that they are cowards and terrorist and they control all of Lebanon in between all civilians and that is why it is harder to destroy them. Also he said that the difference between hizballa and them is that hizb celebrate everytime they kill one israeli civilian and they grive when they "mistakenly" kill one lebanese civilian ... and on and on...
Also, he kept highlighting thta Israel is a democracy who is defending themselves and that ever since they left in 2000, hizbollah have been attacking them on and off.

it's funny how everyone believe this propaganda by Israelis. He kept blaming Nasralla for everything.
__________________
---------------------------------

Hizballah couldn't get a photo of the bombed ship because it was far & there was plenty of fog in the coast of Tyr.
__________________

IDF will ruin Lebanon's infrastructure!!!! as if they have spared any of our infrastructure... we have a couple of bridges left let them go ahead and bomb them.
---------------

the zionists will lose prestige once their terror capital is bombarded, they are freaking out.

-----------------

I fear they will be even more united, and would get even more international support!

------------------

If in Israel's view the price of destroying Tel Aviv is equal to the very few bridges left standing after their barbarian aggression, then the Israelis have really lost their minds! Do you think that this is a winning proposition for them?

I think that the count down of this war has started with a clear looser (in military terms): Israel and its IDF! Unless the Israelis decide to run forward and open the game by including Syria in their attacks!

--------------

Israel will be the loser because all of the objectives it set for this war will not be accomplished:
1- eliminate (or at least lessen) the threat of HA weapons
2- return captured soldiers

when this is all done, HA will be stronger than before
__________________
-----------------------------

I think that the count down of this war has started with a clear looser (in military terms): Israel and its IDF!

-------------

In modern wars, losers or winners "in military terms" means nothing. The clear losers in this war are the lebanese people.

By the way, how is Israel a loser in military terms? There are more losses for the lebanese army and Hizballah than for IDF. and of course, I'm not even speaking about civilians and infrastructure.

Oh but I forgot, even if we hit 1 of them, its better than losing 100's here. Sorry I forgot.

-----------------

I agree that Lebanon has lost a lot. But you know what Lebanon would gain if this war ends with Israel loosing in military terms? Lebanon will remain a free undivided country that did not face the same Nakba that happened to the Palestinians in 1947-1949! (Need I remind you of Condi's plan for the New ME? Clean Break?) So, Yes - hitting the IDF and making sure that it cannot occupy Lebanon to divide it and capture its water is a gain!

I will not repeat the other important points: breaking IDF's myth as the army that can never be defeated will be a great step forward towards them not imposing on us similar adventures in the future!

Please relax your sarcastic remarks especially during these heavy times! Thanks!
__________________
--------------------------------

You're right,
We should be like the Arabic leaders,
We should put our heads down and ask Israel's forgivness
We should sit there and wait for them to tell us what they want us to do
Why don't we submit to their desires and forget everything. Israel is such a good neighbor. They have no bad intentions towards us. It's all HA's fault. They brought the planes, the ships, the bombs, and death upon us.
All Israel wants is peace, nothing less nothing more
They have no future plans for our land, our water, and our people

There is something called honor which many forgot, or pretend that it doesn't exist, or maybe doesn't concern them.
Just a difference in opinion, don't take it personal

--------------------

I am still amazed that after all the miseries that befell Lebanon for 30 years, we still haven't learned a thing.

-----------------------------

Your mistaken we did learn one thing, we know who the enemy is now and who are the traitors.

besides why are you worried, all the nightclubs in mon have been transfered to Faqra and kiserwan so this way our LF brothers can still enjoy their daily lifes and your affiliates in Gulf region can contribute to your little kanton.
__________________

---------------------------

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:39pm

Hezbollah leader threatens Tel Aviv By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
6 minutes ago

Hezbollah's leader offered Thursday to stop rocket attacks on northern Israel in return for an end to airstrikes throughout Lebanon.

However, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah also vowed to fire rockets into Tel Aviv if Israel strikes Beirut proper. Israeli warplanes have repeatedly bombarded Hezbollah strongholds in southern suburbs of Beirut.

"If you bomb our capital Beirut, we will bomb the capital of your usurping entity... We will bomb Tel Aviv," he said in a taped televised speech.

In issuing the threat, Nasrallah offered his first opening toward diminishing the three-week-old conflict, which has taken more than 500 Lebanese lives and killed more than 50 Israelis.

"Anytime you decide to stop your campaign against our cities, villages, civilians and infrastructure, we will not fire rockets on any Israeli settlement or city," he said in a taped video statement broadcast on Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV and carried simultaneously on all other Lebanese and Arab satellite channels.

Speaking directly to Israelis, Nasrallah said, "The only choice before you is to stop your aggression and turn to negotiations to end this folly."

Parts of the speech were carried on Israeli television channels, with Hebrew translation.

Nasrallah said his forces were succeeding in inflicting "maximum casualties" on Israeli ground troops, and that his guerrillas are "fighting until the last breath and last bullet."

Nasrallah acknowledged Israeli advances deeper into Lebanon, but said his guerrillas were not trying to hold ground.

"We are fighting a guerrilla war. Our policy is not to hang onto geography... It is beneficial for us to allow them to advance to the entrances to villages — this is our goal. Our goal is to inflict maximum casualties and damage to the capabilities of the enemy, and we are succeeding," he said.

Nasrallah said Hezbollah's command and control structures and rocket forces remained intact.

Israel claims to have killed more than 300 Hezbollah fighters since the conflict began July 12. The guerrilla group has acknowledged losing only 46 men.

In his 45-minute address, Nasrallah said he held President Bush responsible for the war in Lebanon and said the U.S. was blocking the path to a cease-fire.

"Lebanon will never be pro-American or pro-Israeli. Lebanon will not be part of the `new Middle East' that Bush and Condoleezza Rice want," he said.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has repeatedly said there was no place in "a new Middle East" for Hezbollah or other Islamist groups bent on Israel's destruction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_nasrallah_2;_ylt=AueCYwgGuc0RK.oQYQo9Br0UvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:47pm

Evening Roundup: Nasrallah, Israel Trade Threats as Troops are Locked in Heavy Battles with Hizbullah Fighters in the South

Israel renewed airstrikes on Beirut's southern suburbs Thursday, and Hizbullah retaliated by firing more than 130 rockets at northern Israel, killing eight people in Acre and Maalot.
It was the bloodiest day in Israel since eight people were killed July 16 near a train maintenance depot.

Meanwhile, Hizbullah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said his group would fire rockets into Tel Aviv if Israel strikes Beirut proper.

"If you bomb our capital Beirut, we will bomb the capital of your usurping entity... We will bomb Tel Aviv," he said in a taped televised speech.

After Nasrallah's warning, an Israeli military official told public television that the Jewish state will destroy all Lebanese infrastructure if Hizbullah carries out its threat to hit Tel Aviv.

The threats came as Israeli warplanes dropped leaflets on Beirut's southern suburbs urging residents to leave.

The Hizbullah Secretary General also said that his fighters are "fighting until the last breath and last bullet." But he offered to stop firing rockets on Israeli cities if Israel stops attacks on Lebanese towns.

Three weeks into the conflict, six Israeli brigades — roughly 10,000 troops — were locked in fighting with hundreds of Hizbullah fighters in southern Lebanon, and the battle looked likely to be long and bitter.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz told top army officers to prepare to push Israeli control 28 km into south Lebanon to the Litani River, senior military officials said.

Launching the next phase of the operation would require further approval by Israel's Security Cabinet.

The army said that it already had taken up positions as far as 8 km inside Lebanon but Nasrallah denied the Israeli claims.

At the United Nations, France circulated a revised resolution calling for an immediate cessation of Israeli-Hizbullah hostilities.

It also spells out conditions for a lasting solution to the crisis, including: deploying peacekeepers; creating a buffer zone in south Lebanon free of Hizbullah fighters and Israeli troops; the release of two Israeli soldiers abducted by Hizbullah; and the "settlement of the issue of the Lebanese prisoners detained in Israel."

So far, Washington has resisted calls for a cease-fire without simultaneous steps to deploy peacekeepers and tackle Hizbullah's disarmament. France insists the fighting be halted first to pave the way for a wider peace.

Amid the diplomatic wrangling, Hizbullah's chief spokesman said his group will not agree to a cease-fire until all Israeli troops leave Lebanon.

"Declaring a cease-fire is not the concern of the people of Lebanon as long as there is one Israeli soldier on Lebanese soil ... It is the right of every Lebanese to fight until liberation," Hizbullah spokesman Hussein Rahal said in a live interview with Al-Jazeera TV network.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told The Associated Press on Wednesday that his country would stop its offensive only after international peacekeepers were in place in southern Lebanon.

The Israeli army said its soldiers had taken up positions in or near 11 towns and villages across south Lebanon as they try to carve out an 8-km-wide Hizbullah-free zone ahead of deployment of a multinational force there.

Most of the villages are near the Israel-Lebanon border; the one deepest inside Lebanon, Majdel Zoun, is about 6 km from the frontier. However, many tanks pushed farther north, controlling open areas from higher ground, security officials said.

Nasrallah denied claims that the Israeli army was "controlling" regions of southern Lebanon in its incursions in the region.

"The battles are on the frontlines and the villages of the frontlines ... the mujahedeens are fighting to the last bullet and the last soul," he said.

In fighting Thursday:

_Three Israeli soldiers were killed when a rocket hit their tank in the Lebanese border village of Rajmil, the army said. Hizbullah also announced that

_Israeli aircraft carried out an air raid on the eastern city of Baalbeck.

_In the border village of Taibeh, an Israeli missile crashed into a two-story house, killing a couple and their daughter, Lebanese security officials said. Fighters clashed with Israeli troops, destroying a tank and two bulldozers and wounding its crew members, Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV said. The Israeli army said only a tank was lightly hit.

_In the first air raids on Beirut in almost a week, witnesses said at least four missiles hit the southern suburb of Dahieh. Lebanese television said the attacks targeted a Hizbullah compound that includes a center for religious teaching. The compound already was damaged by earlier raids.

_In the southern town of Nabatiyeh, Israeli jets struck an ambulance working for a local group. Two people were injured in Israeli air raids on villages nearby, and artillery landed near a Lebanese army base in the town, Lebanese security officials said.

_Israeli warplanes fired more than a dozen missiles at roads and suspected Hizbullah hideouts in the southeastern town of Rashaya, the security officials said. They said the attacks were part of Israel's strategy to destroy Lebanon's infrastructure.(AP-AFP-Naharnet)(Outside AP photo shows an Israeli strike hitting the outskirts of Tyre in southern Lebanon and inside AP photo shows an Israeli fighter jet dropping flares during a sortie over the town of Tyre)

Beirut, Updated 03 Aug 06, 22:25

Naharnet'

stunster August 3, 2006 - 4:49pm

...previous entry "Further detail" and place it in alt text so it doesn't mess up formatting for the thread. Thanks.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave August 3, 2006 - 5:11pm

Haaretz Editorial: What about the missiles?

....Even if all the achievements on the list stand the test of time, they cannot cover up the Israel Defense Forces' failure, after three weeks of fighting, to put an end to, or at least reduce, the intense fire on Israel....

This gap between the prime minister's statements and yesterday's events raises questions. Even if Olmert wanted to raise the nation's spirit by speaking of achievements, this cannot be done without a factual basis. Olmert cannot ignore the reality of the blood on the ground. His statements, suggesting that one of the war's achievements is that Nasrallah will no longer want to fire missiles at Israel, shatter under the test of reality. Hezbollah is continuing to fire almost to its heart's content....

stunster August 3, 2006 - 5:05pm

IDF soldier killed in al-Taibeh

An IDF soldier has been killed Thursday evening by an anti-tank missile in the Lebanese village of al-Taibej in the eastern district of southern Lebanon. The soldier has been named as Corporal Yehonatan Sharavi, 19, of Petah Tikva.

Earlier, three IDF soldiers were killed by an anti-tank missile in the village of Rajmin in Lebanon. The names of two soldiers have been released. In total four soldiers have been killed. (Efrat Weiss)

ynetnews.com

I should mention that Al Manar reported a 6th tank hit today, this one in Taibeh, just half an hour or so before the Israelis announced this latest fatality.

Of course, I've no way of knowing if there's a connection.

stunster August 3, 2006 - 5:12pm

U.S. to Help Train, Equip Lebanon Army

Thursday August 3, 2006 7:31 PM

By BARRY SCHWEID

AP Diplomatic Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The United States plans to help train and equip the Lebanese army so it can take control of all of its territory when the warfare between Israel and Hezbollah eases, the State Department said Thursday.

The program was approved by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to take effect ``once we have conditions on the ground permitting,'' said department spokesman Sean McCormack.

McCormack provided no details on what equipment the United States might provide, the type of training that would be conducted, how many U.S. personnel would be involved, or how much the effort would cost.
more

and the arms makers rejoice ;-)



In these times you have to be an optimist to open your eyes when you awake in the morning. ~ Carl Sandburg

Tina August 3, 2006 - 5:35pm

Defense Minister Amir Peretz told Israel Defense Forces officials on Thursday evening to begin preparing for the next stage of the military offensive in south Lebanon, which would extend the IDF's control to all Lebanese territory south of the Litani River.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, however, is said to be reluctant about expanding Israel's ground operation. While Peretz believes that the short-range rocket threat posed by Hezbollah can be neutralized by taking the area up to the Litani, Olmert feels that such a move would not be able to counter the longer-range missile threat posed by the Shi'ite organization.

The directive issued by Peretz was made in the wake of Hezbollah rocket attacks that killed eight people in northern Israel earlier Thursday, officials said....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746085.html

00:20 Saudi police disperse pro-Hezbollah rally held by Shi`ites in eastern region (Reuters)

23:55 Wife of captured IDF soldier Ehud Goldwasser asks Hezbollah for his release (Haaretz)

23:45 Israeli lightly hurt when Palestinian hurl rocks at his car in West Bank (Itim)

23:32 Slain IDF soldier named as Yehonatan Sharavi, 19, of Petah Tikvah (Haaretz)

23:07 Two of the three Palestinians hurt in IAF strike in Gaza die of their wounds (Haaretz)

stunster August 3, 2006 - 6:13pm

Confidence and Belief in Victory

There were no cars in the winding streets of this southern Lebanese village. Not many people, either. The signs of life were the buzz of Israeli surveillance drones overhead and, below, a gaggle of Hezbollah loyalists, sitting in a small storefront along an abandoned street. There was a walkie-talkie, bottles of water and, according to the half-dozen or so men, patience.

"We are waiting," said Jamal Nasser, a burly man in civilian clothes. "We are here, and we're not going anywhere."

Three weeks into its war with Israel, Hezbollah has retained its presence in southern Lebanon, often the sole authority in devastated towns along the Israeli border. The militia is elusive, with few logistics, little hierarchy and less visibility. Even residents often say they don't know how the militiamen operate or are organized. Communication is by walkie-talkie, always in code, and sometimes messages are delivered by motorcycle. Weapons seem to be already in place across a terrain that fighters say they know intimately.

"On the ground, face to face, we're better fighters than the Israelis," said Hajj Abu Mohammed, a bearded, 44-year-old militiaman in the small village of Srifa, whose walkie-talkie crackled and cellphone rang with a Hezbollah anthem.

Israel has claimed to have destroyed Hezbollah's infrastructure in a 22-day campaign that has driven hundreds of thousands of civilians from their homes and wrecked village after village along valleys sometimes charred by fires.

Hezbollah admits to having suffered losses, but in the fighting so far, it has demonstrated its detailed planning since the Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 2000, ending an 18-year occupation. Fighters appear to exercise a great deal of autonomy, a flexibility evident along the region's back roads: ammunition loaded in cars, trucks in camouflage, rocket launchers tucked in banana plantations.

Analysts say the militia could probably hold out a month without serious resupply. Fighters and supporters suggest that time is their advantage in a war that most suspect won't have a conclusive end. In conversations in southern Lebanon, the militia's supporters seem most adamant in trying to deprive either Israel or the United States of political gains from the military campaign.

"We'll never submit to oppression, whatever the force applied, whatever the time it takes," one of the group gathered in Jwayya said Tuesday. "You won't find any difference between 21 days and 121 days. The difference is solely a matter of time."

Village after village south of the Litani River, the region of Lebanon that Israel has threatened to invade, are like ghost towns. Traffic rarely plies roads that pass often spectacular destruction, rubble spilling into sun-drenched streets. In Sidiqin, the wall of a home was sheared off to show a table still set with dishes, as if the family had fled in a moment. In Srifa, where villagers say 35 bodies remain buried under rubble from a bombing in the war's first week, the wiry Abu Mohammed was one of the few people left.

"We're in a defensive position," he said, wearing a black shirt and black pants and standing on a curb at a warehouse where tobacco was drying.

The smell of decomposing bodies hung in the air. Overhead were the contrails of Israeli jets.

"There will still be a lot of big surprises," he said.

Hezbollah appears to have hewn to a twofold strategy so far in the war. Strategically, it has calibrated the barrages of its short- and longer-range rockets, trying to match what it views as each Israeli escalation with its own response. In a relative lull in fighting Monday and Tuesday, when Israel suggested it would halt air attacks for a time, only a few rockets were fired into Israel. As Israel renewed its offensive Wednesday in a string of villages, Hezbollah fired the most missiles of the war.

"Our missile capacity is still untouched," Mahmoud Qomati, the deputy head of Hezbollah's political bureau, said in an interview in Beirut. "It is sufficient at two levels, in quantity for the missiles they know of, and in quality for those they still don't know about -- the type or the range." He added: "We have enough missiles for months."

On the ground, its fighters appear eager to draw Israel deeper into the country, stretching supply lines, or to see troops hunkered down in villages where they would be more vulnerable to the guerrilla tactics that Hezbollah used in Bint Jbeil, where eight Israeli soldiers were killed in an ambush. Israeli forces seem wary of falling into a trap and have, so far, moved exceedingly slow through Lebanese territory -- on the ground, just a few miles inside the country.

"They are trying to get Hezbollah to come out and meet them, and Hezbollah is trying to lure them deeper into Lebanon," said Timur Goksel, a former spokesman and senior adviser to the U.N. force in Lebanon and an expert on Hezbollah.

"From now on, it depends on who's more patient," he added.

Among the fighters and grass-roots loyalists of Hezbollah -- especially on the ground level, in villages where they are often defending their homes -- views are hardened and expressed bluntly. They contend that Israel was planning the attack long before two of its soldiers were seized last month. To them, it fits seamlessly into their narrative of Israeli ambitions in Lebanon -- invasions in 1978 and 1982 and campaigns against Hezbollah in 1993 and 1996.

In that view, today's fighting is more another battle than a war in itself. In its ideology, Hezbollah does not recognize Israel as a legitimate state. Yet the words today are more brittle, defensive, even visceral. Israel's existence is rarely mentioned; rather, the fighters talk about fighting for their own survival.

Even Lebanese critics remark on the devotion of Hezbollah's fighters, sometimes with a sense of awe.

"The most important element about this war is its moral dimension. Hezbollah has prepared itself for this war, its fighters have been indoctrinated to fight until victory," said Nizar Abdel Kader, a military analyst and retired Lebanese army general.

"This type of indoctrination creates a mood of competition among fighters -- competition over bravery, over performance and over who is going to be a martyr first," he said. "This is a key element to combat performance."

The men in Jwayya, a small town in the hinterland above Tyre, gathered around a small plastic table, sitting on white chairs. They deferred to an older man they addressed as Sayyid Abu Ali, who smoked a cigarillo. Cars passed by occasionally, and a few terse words were exchanged. The rest of the time conversation revolved around their confidence about a war that, at least for now, Hezbollah believes it is winning. While the war outside may have inflated the rhetoric, no one seemed to have any doubts.

"The aggression gives birth to resistance," Abu Ali said.

Another man nodded. "Every civilian killed, his children, when they get older, will join the resistance," he said.

The 1982 Israeli invasion often comes up in conversations. Then, thousands of Palestinian fighters were forced to evacuate Lebanon, and an ill-fated agreement was signed with Israel. Whether or not Israel plans to advance deeper into Lebanon than it already has, the men here boasted that they had scored a victory by simply keeping its forces close to the border so far. They were unlike the Palestinian fighters Israel faced then; they said they had popular support and were fighting in villages where they grew up.

"In 1982, Israeli tanks arrived all the way to Beirut, basically in safety. It didn't face resistance," one of the men said.

"Israel is not able to play the game of geography that it played in 1982," another added.

The ideological discipline of Hezbollah is often evident in interviews: The outlines of positions come in the speeches of Hezbollah's leader, Hasan Nasrallah, and they are often repeated verbatim by the rank and file. The men here said Hezbollah would keep its arms, whatever the sacrifices, until Israel frees Lebanese prisoners it holds and relinquishes Shebaa Farms, Israeli-occupied territory that Hezbollah claims is Lebanese and Israel views as Syrian.

Still, Abu Ali said he was not opposed to a cease-fire, at a time when Hezbollah has emerged, politically at least, even more powerful than it was before the fighting started.

But Abu Ali framed this struggle in broader terms, drawing on the deep anger among many in southern Lebanon over lack of support from Arab governments and, more sharply, the perception that the United States has encouraged the Israeli attacks.

"We're now fighting a war against America, not just Israel," he said. "We see these are American decisions being carried out." Asked what that meant, he paused, then answered: "There are no borders to our self-defense."

Along the streets into Jwayya, the destruction was everywhere -- from cratered roads to collapsed buildings.

"They'll destroy, and we'll rebuild," he said.

Special correspondent Alia Ibrahim in Beirut contributed to this report.

By Anthony Shadid
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, August 3, 2006; A01
JWAYYA, Lebanon, Aug. 2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/02/AR2006080201584.html

David Bier
CADRE Intel Mgr
http://groups.google.com/group/publicintel

techadvisor August 3, 2006 - 6:26pm

Moroccan Jews ask court to try Amir Peretz for war crimes

By The Associated Press

Three Jewish Moroccans have submitted Rabat's high court with a petition
against Defense Minister Amir Peretz, accusing the Moroccan-born Israeli of
war crimes.

Leftist activist Abraham Tsarfati, author Amran al-Malich and human rights
group official Zion Asidon claim Peretz may be tried in their country due to
his Moroccan citizenship.

"The criminal terrorist, Zionist Amir Peretz, has retained his Moroccan
citizenship and is still registered in Morocco's census," the three told
reporters during a press conference. "Moroccan law allows the trial of any
Moroccan national who has committed war crimes in or out of the country."

Lawyer Abd al-Rahim Ga'ami, who represents the three, said: "Amir Peretz's
political statements and the orders he has issued to his soldiers have
brought about crimes of war and massacres against innocent civilians."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746169.html

stunster August 3, 2006 - 7:02pm

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