Men attended `training camp': Sources

Michele Shephard et al. | Toronto | First posted June 2

The Toronto Star - A group of Canadian teenagers and young men in their 20s, accused by police of being members of a suspected homegrown terrorist cell, will appear in court this morning to face accusations that they plotted to attack Canadian targets, the Toronto Star has learned.

Some members of the group allegedly attended a "training camp" north of the city where they made a video imitating military warfare, and the suspects allegedly had acquired weapons and listed targets in Ontario, sources told the Star.

Led by the RCMP's anti-terrorism task force, more than 400 police officers from across Ontario made the series of arrests last night and early this morning, taking as many as a dozen suspects into custody at a heavily guarded Pickering police station. Sources said there was a concern that some of the group's members had acquired explosives.

 •   Update1: Mounties 'supplied explosives'
 •   Update2: Lawyer: Government says terror plans included beheading

June 7: Please check out comments for updated articles and discussion ~ Eds

[Comment: Better have gotten this one right gentlemen, or there's going to be a lot of egg wearing. Last thing that anyone needs is a reprise of Project Thread. More at the initial link above.

Sorry for the clumsy author line, BTW - simply isn't enough space in the dialogue box for the numerous authors to this piece. ~ JPD]


JustPlainDave June 7, 2006 - 9:38am
( categories: News | Canada )

How Internet monitoring sparked a CSIS investigation into a suspected homegrown terror cell

Michelle Shephard | Toronto | June 3

The Toronto Star - Last night's dramatic police raid and arrest of as many as a dozen men — with more to come — marks the culmination of Canada's largest ever terrorism investigation into an alleged homegrown cell.

The chain of events began two years ago, sparked by local teenagers roving through Internet sites, reading and espousing anti-Western sentiments and vowing to attack at home, in the name of oppressed Muslims here and abroad.

Their words were sometimes encrypted, the Internet sites where they communicated allegedly restricted by passwords, but Canadian spies back in 2004 were reading them. And as the youths' words turned into actions, they began watching them.

According to sources close to the investigation, the suspects are teenagers and men in their 20s who had a relatively typical Canadian upbringing, but — allegedly spurred on by images of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan and angered by what they saw as the mistreatment of Muslims at home — became increasingly violent.

[more at link]

[Comment: I'm looking forward to this being swept up into partisan debate expressed in terms of American domestic politics about as much as I look forward to root canal work. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 3, 2006 - 7:09am

where did they do anything other than participate in Internet sites and make a movie?

They have made no overt threat??? Jeez, this is not as if they have been caught red-handed planting bombs or actually doing a terrorist activity? Is it a crime to 'think' of terrorist-type activity? Where are their bombs, their guns, their WMD? Apparently, two of them did have some type of revolvers? Criminals have hand guns ... that doesn't make them terrorists!

Strikes me the guilty parties are the CSIS, the RCMP and the police for spying on them! This is much worse than McCarthyism, because it isn't isolated to one person motivated by selfish career ambitions spearheading attacks on groups of people calling them commies. It's our government using the weight of its combined forces and all its resources to prosecute its own citizens labelling them terrorists.

I await to hear what the evidence is for the case that will be announced later this morning. Much of the case is dependent on US authorities who should have all their marbles in place in order for the Canadian police to make the arrests and place the charges against these alleged Canadian terrorists.

canuck June 3, 2006 - 7:52am

...to judge that these guys are somehow harmless, given the sketchy information that's come out thusfar. It may turn into another Project Thread debacle, but I suspect that it won't - when you pull in 400 officers and brief most of the region's Chiefs of Police, generally my presumption would be that there's been a fair level of executive oversight.

My understanding is that they are being charged under some of the new provisions coming out of the passing of C-36 late in 2001 - the relevant section of the Criminal Code can be found here and C-36 as passed can be found here. Having briefly skimmed some of the Code, I'd have to say that if the allegations are true, there's basis for the charges.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 3, 2006 - 8:26am

but thank God criminal charges are being laid. At least proof will have to be produced they are guilty as charged.

It will be an interesting trial, because it may reveal the extent of the spying the CSIS, the RCMP and the police have used in order to produce their evidence.

How many innocent Canadians have been indiscriminately spied upon that haven't resulted in charges? Is Big Brother Canuck spying on me now as I type this? :-(

I await to hear what the actual charges are and the relevant criminal code #'s that were allegedly broken. Thanks for the link to the new terrorist laws that probably are relevant. The preamble, "includes a conspiracy" is distasteful, unless it is connected to an actual threat that is imminent and presents a clear danger to the public or individuals within/without our borders.

canuck June 3, 2006 - 8:35am

...that these guys had three tons of ammonium nitrate [h/t] (this appears on the short bullets, but I can't find a story that specifically mentions), I think any assertion that they posed a potential threat is greatly strengthened.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 3, 2006 - 9:44am

Sat, 03 Jun 2006
CBC News

Details began emerging Saturday of an RCMP raid east of Toronto in which 17 people were arrested Friday evening on terrorism-related charges.

Police said 12 adults and five young offenders have been charged with a number of terrorism offenders.

The RCMP said they "have arrested a number of individuals who were planning to commit a series of terror attacks against targets here in southern Ontario."

The RCMP, Canadian Security Intelligence Service officials, and law enforcement officials, including the heads of several Toronto-area police forces held a news conference that began at 10 a.m EDT. in Mississauga, Ont., just west of Toronto.

All the men arrested were residents of Canada and most are Canadian citizens, officials said.

"This group holds a real and serious intent," RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell said.

Officials have not said what specific targets the suspects may have had, although McDonell did confirm that Toronto's transit system was not a target.

"Terrorism is a dangerous ideology that knows no borders," said Luc Portelance, CSIS Assistant Director of Operations.

The charges are related to an explosives plot in Ontario.

Officials said three tonnes of ammonium nitrate was found and they confirmed that the group attended a terrorism training camp.

The suspects, described as being in their teens and 20s, were expected to be arraigned in Pickering, just east of Toronto.

On Friday, armed officers could be seen surrounding the Durham Regional Police Station in Pickering as the suspects were transported in unmarked cars, which were driven into an underground garage.

At least three police officers were armed with machine-guns as they patrolled the building, which was sealed off with yellow tape.

CBC

-----

From a previous Toronto Star article only 3 names are known at this time. One can but hope this isn't a repeat of the previous debacle when the RCMP in combination with the Department of Immigration detained 24 people and deported 17. No charges were laid in that incident in 2003. The allegations were there was a plan to blow up the CN Tower and the Pickering Nuclear Plant.

They have found explosives on this occasion, which does imply, the police do have substantive evidence to present for this case.

canuck June 3, 2006 - 10:42am

"Terrorism is a dangerous ideology that knows no borders," said Luc Portelance, CSIS Assistant Director of Operations.

Terrorism is not an ideology, it is a tactic. Timothy McVeigh, a Christian, used it. Protestants and Catholics in Ireland have used it. Secular atheistic Communists have used it. It is a tactic that no particular ideology holds claim to.

It bothers me when the people who are entrusted with the pursuit of it are so sloppy defining it.

Escher Sketch June 3, 2006 - 10:59am

...isn't operating in his mother tongue, there. I haven't read much of the literature in French but my vague (and very murkily translated) recollection is that it was more expressed as an ideology or a phenomenon of the ideal.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 3, 2006 - 12:06pm

It's reassuring to think that the Francophone wing may have it hardwired into their language wrong.

As he works for me as a Canadian taxpayer, I volunteer to compile a short list of English words he needs to be very clear about expressing the nuances of.

I want the definition of terrorism rigidly controlled lest we wake up in five years finding it now means paying your taxes, or your parking tickets - or your phone bill - late. Give law enforcement or intel intensely powerful tools to fight terrorism and it's an open invitation to broaden the definition of terrorism to "stuff we don't like".

Escher Sketch June 3, 2006 - 12:29pm

...has a clearer idea than either of us what the definition of "terrorism" in the Canadian governmental context, and particularly in the context of Canadian law, entails. I don't think that he has it hardwired into his language "wrong", I think that when he speaks of the concept he chooses words that are slightly different from what he would choose were he a native English speaker - doesn't mean that he actually has an meaningfully different concept of the phenomenon. 'course, all this is predicated on him actually not being a native anglo, which is still pretty speculative.

And yes, the definition of what constitutes terrorism is quite rigidly controlled - the links I posted elsewhere in this thread contain the legal Canadian definition.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 3, 2006 - 12:40pm

on the Toronto Star's website. They are:

1. Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto;
2. Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.;
3. Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga;
4. Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga;
5. Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga;
6. Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.;
7. Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston;
8. Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto;
9. Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto;
10. Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur, 25, Toronto;
11. Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga;
12. Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.

I speculate the twelve names are Musllim?

canuck June 3, 2006 - 11:17am

The McAmaras are relatives, but the O'Ghanys used to steal our sheep.

Escher Sketch June 3, 2006 - 11:20am

The list of the 12 adults were named in my previuos post. Also charged were five youths, who cannot be named.

----

You could be right Escher Sketch, they could be Scots ... I took a wild guess they were Muslims. :-)

canuck June 3, 2006 - 11:31am

Jun. 4, 2006
THOMAS WALKOM, NATIONAL COLUMNIST

Suppose, just suppose, that one or more of the 17 charged yesterday with terrorism is innocent.

This is not the common assumption. I suspect most Canadians assume that Ontario was in great danger from terrorists, that police nipped this danger in the bud and that all of the 12 adults and five young people they arrested are guilty.

All of which may be true. Terrorists do exist. There is the terror we don't think about, committed by nation states under the rubric of security sweeps or targeted reprisals. And there is the terror we do think about, the terrorism of misguided individuals, loons, right-wing militias or Al Qaeda and its Islamist acolytes.

Militant Islamists have committed outrages in the United States, Indonesia, Spain and Britain to counter what they see as the crimes of these countries against Muslims. There is no obvious reason to assume that similar criminals won't try the same thing here.

All of which is to say that the Mounties may be absolutely correct when they say they stopped the 17 from using homemade detonators and three tonnes of fertilizer to blow up as yet unspecified targets in southern Ontario.

There may indeed have been a terrorist conspiracy that involved what the RCMP assistant commissioner Mike McDonell yesterday referred to as "training areas," where militants tramped about in big boots, cooked on outdoor barbecues, built bombs and used a wooden door for target practice.

That's the implication from the evidence shown to reporters yesterday: five pairs of boots in camouflage drab, six flashlights, one set of walkie-talkies, one voltmeter, one knife, eight D-cell batteries, a cellphone, a circuit board, a computer hard drive, one barbecue grill, one set of tongs suitable for turning hot dogs, a wooden door with 21 marks on it and a 9-mm handgun.

Or it is possible that the only thing that these bits of evidence prove is that a group of young men went somewhere where they tramped around in big boots, cooked on barbecues, played soldier and generally acted like jerks — which young men are occasionally wont to do.

The three tonnes of ammonium nitrate allegedly purchased was, as McDonell said, three times the amount used in the Oklahoma terror bombing of 1995.

But, as he also said, farmers routinely buy three tonnes of ammonium nitrate "every day." They use it for fertilizer, not bombs.

In short, we don't know much yet about what these men and boys were trying to do. We don't know if this series of arrests, called Operation O-Sage by the Mounties, pre-empted the kind of actions that in the United Kingdom led to last year's bombing of the London subway by otherwise unremarkable young Britons.

That's one possibility. It's certainly the explanation favoured by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who yesterday praised the police.

Another is that this is a reprise of the infamous 2003 Project Thread fiasco, in which RCMP and immigration officials accused 23 Muslims of terrorism only to acknowledge later that at most the men were guilty of minor immigration fraud.

Still another possibility is that this may turn out to be Canada's version of the 2004 Virginia "paintball" trial, in which one man was sentenced to life and another got 85 years.

In that controversial case (even the presiding judge complained the outcome was unfair), nine Muslim men were convicted of participating in terrorist training — the main evidence being that they had played paintball in the woods outside Washington.

What we do know about Operation O-Sage is that the RCMP, as well as the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, have been tracking the suspects since 2004. We also know that at least some of their neighbours knew police were watching them. Presumably, some of the suspects did, too.

If the alleged conspirators knew they were under surveillance, it seems odd that they continued along merrily with plans to make explosives.

But perhaps they are not bright terrorists. Or perhaps they are not terrorists at all.

With luck, we will get these answers at trial. This time at least, Canada has chosen to deal with alleged terrorists in the proper way, by charging them with criminal offences and allowing the case to come to court — in Canada.

For too long, the government's preferred option was to let others handle our problems. In 2002, CSIS agents escorted alleged Canadian terrorist Mohamed Mansour Jabarah across the border so he could be arrested by the FBI and convicted in a secret trial. Later that year, the RCMP co-operated with the Americans to have them arrest Canadian suspect Maher Arar in New York (he was later transferred to Syria to be tortured).

Five other alleged terrorists are simply being detained without charge under Canada's very elastic immigration act until they can be deported.

So, in this context, the 2004 decision to charge Canadian Mohammad Momin Khawaja for terrorism and yesterday's unrelated decision to charge the 17 are welcome. At least the accused aren't being sent to Syria.

During the next few days, much will be written and broadcast on the 17. Their lives will be re-examined through the prism of the arrests as reporters try to retrace the steps that allegedly led them to violent jihad. Unnamed security sources will leak details designed to bolster the police case. Families and friends will proclaim the innocence of those charged.

Take it all with a grain of salt. We know that police arrested people. We know they seized some materials — all legal — that can be used to make explosives. So far, we don't know much else.

Toronto Star

canuck June 4, 2006 - 6:03am

...you forgot about the handguns - those are prohibited weapons and a big no no. It's definitely possible that this is another Project Thread fiasco, but given the weapons and the cell phone wired as a remote initiator (see below) the chances seem pretty low.

It may prove to be difficult to prove all of this, particularly the elements of conspiracy, to the satisfaction of a court of law and I suspect that many of these men may end up getting off, but when you've got ammonium nitrate and a remote initiator like this it's reasonable to assert that somebody (certainly not necessarily everybody) is up to no good.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 4, 2006 - 6:17am

Bomb-making material delivered in police sting

Michelle Shephard and Isabel Teotonio | Toronto | June 4

The Toronto Star - The delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate to a group suspected of plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario was part of an undercover police sting operation, the Toronto Star has learned.

The RCMP said yesterday that after investigating the alleged homegrown terrorist cell for months, they had to move quickly Friday night to arrest 12 men and five youths before the group could launch a bomb attack on Canadian soil.

Sources say investigators who had learned of the group's alleged plan to build a bomb were controlling the sale and transport of the massive amount of fertilizer, a key component in creating explosives. Once the deal was done, the RCMP-led anti-terrorism task force moved in for the arrests.

[more at link]


[So I wonder, says I, how long it'll be before the allegations of entraptment begin to propagate, wrapped up in the "Harper as son of Bush" meme. I'm guessing not long - you say cynical, I say realist. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 4, 2006 - 6:23am

...that these guys were very difficult to distinguish from "other youth".

The ties that bind 17 suspects?

ANALYSIS | `They represent the broad strata of our community,' the RCMP says.

Surya Bhattacharya, Nasreen Gulamhusein & Heba Aly | Toronto | June 4

The Toronto Star - In investigators' offices, an intricate graph plotting the links between the 17 men and teens charged with being members of a homegrown terrorist cell covers at least one wall. And still, says a source, it is difficult to find a common denominator.

Some of the students, who cannot be named because they are not yet 18 and their identities are protected by Canadian law, attended the same high school.

The suspects are mainly teens and men in their young 20s, with the exception of 43-year-old Qayyum Abdul Jamal, a bus driver and recognized figure at a Mississauga Islamic centre.

[snip]

RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell said yesterday the suspects are all Canadian residents and the majority are citizens. "They represent the broad strata of our community. Some are students, some are employed, some are unemployed," he said.

"Some are actually recruited. Going out and looking for marginalized youth, if we can call it that, and other ones it's common association within a community." As police briefed the media, families, friends and neighbours told stories of the men they believe are wrongly accused.

[more at link above - detailed profiles can be found here]

[Comment: Once again the Star shows its newsroom depth - there's one heck of a lot of stories on this. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 4, 2006 - 6:36am

MUSLIM REACTION | Few surprised by arrests, but leaders say more must be done to prevent involvement with extreme ideologies

Madhavi Acharya-Tom Yew | June 4 | Toronto

The Toronto Star - Members of the Muslim community expressed shock and sadness — but not surprise — at the arrest of 17 people from the GTA who have been charged with terror-related offences.

Though some leaders worry that Muslims may feel the sting of backlash, others say the community must do more to fight extremist views within its own mosques.

Investigators made a point of saying yesterday that the arrests are not an indictment of any particular faith or national group. Muslim leaders also said they hope Canadians will remember that those charged are innocent until proven guilty, and that those who hold to violent and extreme religious views are a tiny fraction of the approximately 750,000 Muslims who call this country home.

[snip]

"There was a documented increase in hate crimes against Muslims in Canada following the Sept. 11 attacks. Community members also say they suffered incidents of verbal abuse after the transit bombings in Spain and London, Elmasry said. "We're expecting the same after this news."

He added, "The accused are innocent until proven guilty. We hope the media will not find the community guilty by association."

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 4, 2006 - 6:51am

By BETH DUFF-BROWN and ROB GILLIES
The Associated Press
Sunday, June 4, 2006

TORONTO -- Canadian authorities decided to move quickly against a suspected homegrown terror ring and head off any attack on Ontario targets after undercover Mounties delivered bomb-making materials in a sting operation, according to a news report Sunday.

The Toronto Star said the Royal Canadian Mounted Police itself delivered the three tons of ammonium nitrate that authorities reported Saturday had been acquired by a group of Muslims apparently inspired by al-Qaida.

Once the deal was done, police moved in for the arrests, the Star said. It added that investigators had learned of the group's alleged plan to build a bomb and then controlled the sale and transport of the fertilizer.

It wasn't clear how the sting sale developed, and there was no indication of whether police might have altered the fertilizer to make it unusable in a bomb.

Authorities refused to discuss the Star's story. They have revealed few details of the purported plot, news of which was followed by vandalism against at least one mosque and e-mailed threats to Muslim leaders.

Police officers are saying privately that Web surfing and e-mail among the suspects initially led to the investigation beginning in 2004, something that Canada's ambassador in Washington, Michael Wilson, alluded to in an interview with CNN's "Late Edition."

"My understanding of it is that the Internet played a very important part of it. Whether there was a direct inspiration or an indirect inspiration, the Internet was, according to the police, was a very important part of their activities," Wilson said.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the Canadian operation was "obviously a great success for the Canadians. They're to be congratulated for it."

Police arrested 12 adults, ages 19 to 43, and five suspects younger than 18 Friday and Saturday on terrorism charges, including plotting attacks with explosives on Canadian targets. The suspects were citizens or residents of Canada, and police said they had trained together.

Cpl. Michele Paradis, a spokeswoman for the Mounties, disagreed with a government official who said privately that more arrests might be made this week.

"Not right now," she said. "Once we once analyze and sort through everything that was seized as a result there may be. At this point we are confident that we have the majority of people."

The 17 suspects represent a broad spectrum of Canadian society, from the unemployed to the the college educated. The 12 adults live in Toronto, Mississauga and Kingston, Ontario. The five youths cannot be identified under Canadian law.

more from the Washington Post

-----

Mounties delivered the 3 tons of explosives to the suspects??? :-)

Has anyone seen the Toronto Star article this Washington Post article refers to that makes the claim? It's not on the Star's site. I can't imagine the Washington Post making such an allegation unless they checked their information very carefully. They are a very reputable source of news. There is no story like this in the Canadian press that I can find.

So, the defendants' lawyer (s) will contend the sting amounted to entrapment by the RCMP?

The RCMP now has lost quite a bit of their credibility for this case by not including this fact in the release of the initial story that has been reported widely in the Canadian press IMHO.

In the article, Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice has categorically denied these defendants can be linked with the counterparts in the United States. "We certainly don't believe that there's any link to the United States, but obviously we will follow up," Rice said on CBS's "Face the Nation," noting the investigation was continuing.

----

So much for these alleged Canadian terrorists being international in scope. Their lawyer (s) if he/she is smart will have already taped Ms. Rice making that statement and replay it in court as part of their defense.

-----

How odd? Now the link from the Washington Post doesn't bring up the same story? Should have posted the whole thing--now the story that I posted is lost except for what I cut and pasted. :-( But the one about the RCMP delivering the fertilizer to the suspects is now on the Star's website. See story that follows this one. No idea what happened and why it is the Washington Post no longer has this particular story on their website.

canuck June 4, 2006 - 6:46pm

Massive sweep | Investigators controlled the sale and transport of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate in an undercover probe of an alleged homegrown terrorist cell
Police say they moved in quickly to avert attacks in southern Ontario

Jun. 4, 2006
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND ISABEL TEOTONIO
STAFF REPORTERS

The delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate to a group suspected of plotting terrorist attacks in southern Ontario was part of an undercover police sting operation, the Toronto Star has learned.

The RCMP said yesterday that after investigating the alleged homegrown terrorist cell for months, they had to move quickly Friday night to arrest 12 men and five youths before the group could launch a bomb attack on Canadian soil.

Sources say investigators who had learned of the group's alleged plan to build a bomb were controlling the sale and transport of the massive amount of fertilizer, a key component in creating explosives. Once the deal was done, the RCMP-led anti-terrorism task force moved in for the arrests.

At a news conference yesterday morning, the RCMP displayed a sample of ammonium nitrate and a crude cell phone detonator they say was seized in the massive police sweep when the 17 were taken into custody. However, they made no mention of the police force's involvement in the sale.

"It was their intent to use it for a terrorist attack," said RCMP assistant commissioner Mike McDonell. "If I can put this in context for you, the 1995 bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people was completed with only one tonne of ammonium nitrate."

Ammonium nitrate is a popular fertilizer, but when mixed with fuel oil it can create a powerful explosive.

Standing behind McDonell were the chiefs of police from Toronto and Durham, York and Peel regions, as well as officials with the Ontario Provincial Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service — representing about 400 people involved with the investigation of the group.

"This group posed a real and serious threat," said McDonell, speaking near a table with seized evidence such as a 9-mm Luger handgun, military fatigues and two-way radios. "It had the capacity and intent to carry out these acts."

The suspects were allegedly planning to launch attacks in southern Ontario, but officials would not specify targets. Nor would they say if attacks were considered imminent.

However, they did say the TTC was not a target. Sources told the Star that the Toronto headquarters of Canada's spy agency on Front St., adjacent to the CN Tower, was on the group's alleged list.

The names of the 12 adult suspects now in custody were made public yesterday, but identities of the youths under the age of 18 cannot be released, according to Canadian laws protecting minors. Of the adults, six are from Mississauga; four from Toronto and two were already incarcerated in Kingston on gun smuggling charges.

The charges laid against the men included participating in or contributing to the activity of a terrorist group, including training and recruitment; providing or making available property for terrorist purposes; and the commission of indictable offences, including firearms and explosives offences for the benefit of or in association with a terrorist group.

Charged are Fahim Ahmad, 21; Jahmaal James, 23; Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19; and Steven Vikash Chand, 25, all of Toronto; Zakaria Amara, 20; Asad Ansari, 21; Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30; Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21; Saad Khalid, 19; and Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, all of Mississauga; and Mohammed Dirie, 22 and Yasin Abdi Mohamed, 24, who are incarcerated in Kingston.

As officials spoke with reporters, the suspects were being loaded into unmarked vehicles at the Ajax-Pickering police station, where they had spent the night. Wearing leg irons and handcuffs, they were taken to a Brampton courtroom in groups of between two and six to appear before a justice of the peace.

Anser Farooq, a lawyer who represents five of the accused, pointed at snipers on the roof of the courthouse and said: "This is ridiculous. They've got soldiers here with guns. This is going to completely change the atmosphere.

"I think (the police) cast their net far too wide," he said, adding his clients are considering suing law enforcement agencies.

The father of one accused, Mohammed Abdelhaleen, spoke outside the courthouse after his son's appearance, saying there is "no validation" to any of the charges against any of the suspects.

"I have no idea what this is," said the distraught father. "I'm sure it's going to come to nothing. We're playing a political game here. I hope the judicial system realizes this."

With quivering lips, the father said he was in "a very bad place right now. The damage is already done."

Around the same time, Karl Nickner of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations issued a statement that he is confident "the justice system will accord these individuals transparency, due process and the presumption of innocence."

"We stand behind our security forces and the Canadian government in their desire to protect Canada," said the executive director. "As Canadian Muslims, we unequivocally condemn terrorism in all of its forms."

It's still unclear how the group of suspects is connected and police yesterday offered few details of its alleged activities. But sources close to the investigation told the Star that the investigation began in2004 when CSIS began monitoring fundamentalist Internet sites and their users.

They later began monitoring a group of young men, and the RCMP launched a criminal investigation. Police allege the group later picked targets and plotted attacks.

Last winter some members of the group, including the teenagers, went to a field north of the city, where they allegedly trained for an attack and made a video imitating warfare.

Sources said some of the younger members forged letters about a bogus school trip to give to their parents so they could attend.

Police said there were no known connections to Al Qaeda or international terrorist organizations, but that the group was homegrown, meaning the suspects were Canadian citizens, or long-time residents and had allegedly become radicalized here.

This type of extremism was blamed for the suicide attacks in London last July which claimed the lives of 52 commuters travelling on the subway and a double-decker bus.

"They appear to have become adherents of a violent ideology inspired by Al Qaeda," said Luc Portelance of CSIS, adding there is no direct link to the network.

John Thompson of the Mackenzie Institute said he has long warned officials about the possibility of homegrown terrorists and what he dubbed the "jihad generation."

"There's been a focus on (recruiting) younger Muslims, especially those who were mostly raised here," said Thompson, who is director of the Toronto-based think tank.

Recruiters, or "ideological conditioners," he said, have been actively seeking members in Toronto-area mosques, community centres and schools since 2002.

Officials have not linked the suspects to terror cells abroad, but Portelance was quick to point out the investigation is ongoing.

Sources say the cases of two men from Georgia, now in custody in the U.S. facing terrorism charges, are connected to alleged members of the Canadian group.

Yesterday, officials offered few details about the suspects or how they met, saying only they come from a "variety of backgrounds" and represented a broad strata, including students, the employed and unemployed.

"It is important to know that this operation in no way reflects negatively on any specific community or ethnocultural group in Canada," said Portelance. "Terrorism is a dangerous ideology, and a global phenomenon. ... Canada is not immune from this ideology."

When asked why Canadians would want to attack targets in Canada, Portelance said: "Clearly, they're motivated by some of the things we see around the world," he said.

"They're against the Western influences in Islamic countries and have an adherence to violence to reach a political objective. But as far as the specific motivators, I think they probably change from individual to individual."

Speaking in Ottawa at an enrolment ceremony for 225 new Canadian military recruits, Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered his views.

"As at other times in our history, we are a target because of who we are and how we live, our society, our diversity and our values — values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law — the values that make Canada great, values that Canadians cherish."

Toronto Star

canuck June 4, 2006 - 9:01pm

Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered his views.
"As at other times in our history, we are a target because of who we are and how we live, our society, our diversity and our values — values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law — the values that make Canada great, values that Canadians cherish."

Escher Sketch June 4, 2006 - 9:19pm

and who are the "We"? It seems as though Harper is mindlessly channelling Bush and Blair. I'm just back from Halifax and was watching the story develop on TV up there (it was a wet weekend). By all reports these are Canadian citizens. Self hating Canadians perhaps? More likely they have other, more complicated, issues.

Mark June 4, 2006 - 9:41pm

Huh? With due respect, honoured Sir, for a more rational perspective, you really must visit the East Mall late on a Friday night.

Anyway. Whatever. I'm one Canadian who certainly feels quite ..er.. differently about the state of the nation's security, now that Stockwell Day is in charge.

I doubt. Therefore I could be.

Chickadee June 5, 2006 - 3:07pm

The FT gets up on its hind legs on "Canada" - nymole

Financial Times - Saturday morning was probably not the best time for the Federation of Canadian Municipalities to urge the US to slow the implementation of tighter border controls on travellers from Canada.

The chances of Washington heeding that call – already low – had been diminished a few hours earlier when Canadian police arrested 17 people on suspicion of plotting a series of terror attacks against targets in heavily populated southern Ontario.

The arrests, one of the biggest anti-terrorism operations in north America since the terror attacks of September 2001, are likely to fan debate in Canada on several other emotive issues, notably immigration and the presence of 2,000 Canadian troops in Afghanistan.

Friday’s operation is also sure to provoke closer public scrutiny of the country’s rapidly growing Muslim community. While the men arrested on Friday were Canadian residents, several were immigrants from countries as diverse as Egypt, Somalia and Trinidad.

In line with a generally tolerant attitude towards immigrants, Canadian Muslims have until now faced little of the backlash that has followed attacks in the US and Europe.

“It’s a wake-up call to the Canadian state and the Muslim community, because it’s a reflection of failure on all our parts,” Tarek Fatah, communications director for the Muslim Canadian Congress, told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

Toronto’s mayor, David Miller, added that “we need to do some work to find out how people would be sucked into this kind of activity”.

Police alleged the arrested men were arranging delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate and enough other bomb-making equipment to blow up several large buildings. Ammonium nitrate, normally used as fertiliser, can be turned into a crude bomb.

The Toronto Star reported on Sunday that the ammonium was supplied by the authorities as part of a “sting” operation.

The police refused to identify the group’s intended targets, but said they were all in Canada. Local media reports have mentioned Toronto’s landmark CN Tower, offices of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), and the parliament buildings in Ottawa

The men, including five under 18, have been charged under an anti-terror law passed in late 2001.

The law has so far been used against only one person, Mohammad Momin Khawaja, an Ottawa software specialist, who is awaiting trial for alleged connections to a UK terror group. Several other people are being held without charge in Canada.

US officials have been concerned for some time that Canada’s relatively relaxed immigration and asylum rules could make it a staging ground for terror groups.

An Algerian-born man, Ahmed Ressam, is serving a 22-year sentence in the US for planning to detonate a suitcase bomb at Los Angeles International Airport during millennium celebrations in 1999. Mr Ressam was detained when he entered Washington state from Canada in a car containing explosives and timing devices.

Mr Fatah said that several of those arrested on Friday attended a small mosque in Mississauga, a Toronto suburb. The oldest member of the group, Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, was the mosque’s imam. CSIS said that the men were followers of a “violent ideology inspired by al-Qaeda”.

Large numbers of immigrants, especially from south Asia, have moved into the Toronto area over the past decade. Most have been allowed to enter Canada under a controversial family reunification provision.

The Liberal party, which formed the government from 1993 until earlier this year, has built a strong constituency in these communities.

The new minority Conservative government has retreated from earlier plans to tighten immigration laws. The prime minister, Stephen Harper, said on Saturday that “we are a target because of who we are and how we live”. But pressure is sure to increase on the government to make Canada a less welcoming target after the weekend’s events.


"at some point I'm hopeful I'll figure out something to put here"

nymole June 4, 2006 - 9:12pm

Reuters is reporting...

TORONTO (Reuters) - Vandals smashed windows of a Toronto mosque after a weekend police sweep that netted 17 suspected al Qaeda sympathisers accused of plotting bomb attacks, and Canadian Muslims expressed fear on Sunday that a backlash had begun.

"Numerous windows were smashed" at the mosque either late Saturday or early on Sunday and the incident was being investigated, a police official said in an interview.

A second official said he had no information on whether there was a link between the vandalism and the arrests.

Mohammad Alam, the president Islamic Foundation of Toronto, said the incident may be the beginning of religiously motivated reprisals against the country's Muslim population, estimated at more than 600,000.

Chickadee June 4, 2006 - 9:18pm

Canadian Police Moved in on Terror Suspects After Sting Delivery of Bomb Materials, News Report Says

By BETH DUFF-BROWN and ROB GILLIES

TORONTO Jun 4, 2006 (AP)— Canadian authorities decided to move quickly against a suspected homegrown terror ring and head off any attack on Ontario targets after undercover Mounties delivered bomb-making materials in a sting operation, according to a news report Sunday.

The Toronto Star said the Royal Canadian Mounted Police itself delivered the three tons of ammonium nitrate that authorities reported Saturday had been acquired by a group of Muslims apparently inspired by al-Qaida.

Once the deal was done, police moved in for the arrests, the Star said. It added that investigators had learned of the group's alleged plan to build a bomb and then controlled the sale and transport of the fertilizer.

It wasn't clear how the sting sale developed, and there was no indication of whether police might have altered the fertilizer to make it unusable in a bomb.

Authorities refused to discuss the Star's story. They have revealed few details of the purported plot, news of which was followed by vandalism against at least one mosque and e-mailed threats to Muslim leaders.

Police officers are saying privately that Web surfing and e-mail among the suspects initially led to the investigation beginning in 2004, something that Canada's ambassador in Washington, Michael Wilson, alluded to in an interview with CNN's "Late Edition."

"My understanding of it is that the Internet played a very important part of it. Whether there was a direct inspiration or an indirect inspiration, the Internet was, according to the police, was a very important part of their activities," Wilson said.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the Canadian operation was "obviously a great success for the Canadians. They're to be congratulated for it."

Police arrested 12 adults, ages 19 to 43, and five suspects younger than 18 Friday and Saturday on terrorism charges, including plotting attacks with explosives on Canadian targets. The suspects were citizens or residents of Canada, and police said they had trained together.

Cpl. Michele Paradis, a spokeswoman for the Mounties, disagreed with a government official who said privately that more arrests might be made this week.

"Not right now," she said. "Once we once analyze and sort through everything that was seized as a result there may be. At this point we are confident that we have the majority of people."

The 17 suspects represent a broad spectrum of Canadian society, from the unemployed to the the college educated. The 12 adults live in Toronto, Mississauga and Kingston, Ontario. The five youths cannot be identified under Canadian law.

Rocco Galati, a lawyer, said he represented two of the men from Mississauga, an immigrant-rich town just east of Toronto.

He described Ahmad Ghany, 21, as a health sciences graduate of McMaster University who was born in Canada. Ghany's father is a physician who emigrated from Trinidad and Tobago in 1955, Galati said.

His other client, Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, is an unmarried computer programmer of Egyptian descent, Galati said. He emigrated from Egypt at age 10 with his father, who is an engineer on contract with Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd., a private that firm provides services to nuclear utilities in Canada and other countries.

"Both of their families are very well-established professionals, well-established families, no criminal pasts whatsoever," Galati said. "That's why we're anxious to see the particulars of the allegations against them."

Two suspects, Mohammed Dirie, 22, and Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, already are in an Ontario prison serving two-year terms for possession of illegal weapons.

Officials said the 17 arrests came after a lengthy operation involving some 400 intelligence and law-enforcement officers and was the largest counterterrorism operation in Canada since the adoption of Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act following the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.

Toronto Mayor David Miller said he was told by the city's police chief several months ago that a suspected terrorist cell was being investigated in the Toronto area.

"I was relieved that police had discovered the activities at a very early stage," Miller said. "I was relieved on behalf of Torontonians because I knew because of the police activities that if there was an actual threat, they would be able to stop it before anything serious happened."

Mike McDonnell, an assistant commissioner with the Mounties, said Saturday that the amount of ammonium nitrate acquired by the alleged terror cell was three times that used by American anti-government extremists to blow up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people and injuring more than 800.

The fertilizer is safe by itself, but when mixed with fuel oil or other ingredients, it makes a powerful explosive.

The FBI said the Canadian suspects might have had "limited contact" with two men recently arrested on terrorism charges in Georgia. There was no indication Sunday, however, that the 17 detainees were trying to plan an attack in the United States.

"We certainly don't believe that there's any link to the United States, but obviously we will follow up," Rice said on CBS's "Face the Nation," noting the investigation was continuing.

Aly Hindy, an imam of Scarborough's Salaheddin Islamic Center, said he knew nine of the suspects and complained that Canada's spy agency, CSIS, has unfairly targeted his mosque and congregants for years.

"They have been harassed by CSIS agents and this is what they come up with?" Hindy said. "I'm almost sure that most of these people will be freed."

Hindy predicted the case would end up like a 2003 high-profile security investigation that ended up embarrassing authorities.

That case, a joint immigration and Mountie investigation, was touted as the dismantling of an al-Qaida cell. Twenty-two Pakistani students and an Indian national were arrested, but it ended up being just an immigration case that sent the students home branded as terrorists.

Mohammed Abdelhaleen, the father of one of the those arrested over the weekend, was alarmed by the huge police presence at Saturday's court hearing, where snipers perched on nearby rooftops and dozens of officers armed with M-16 assault rifles guarded the entrance.

Abdelhaleen said he feared his son had already been convicted in the court of public opinion. "The damage has already been done," the father said. "He just goes and prays in a mosque. That's all he does."

Muslim leaders voiced worries that the highly publicized arrests would cause a backlash against their community of 750,000 people.

A mosque in northwest Toronto was vandalized overnight, with 25 windows and three doors smashed, police said. Enuof Baksh, the building's caretaker, said people were distraught when they saw the broken glass Sunday morning.

Mohamed Elmasry, president of the Canadian Islamic Congress, told AP that he and other Muslim leaders were getting threatening e-mails.

He said Muslims would now have to deal with hate crimes, as they did after the Sept. 11 attacks and bloody bombings in London and Madrid, Spain.

"It's already happening. A mosque was vandalized. We hope Canadians will be more rationale and consider the facts," Elmasry said.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

ABC News

That was the story that was originally on the Washington Post site. Now it’s on the ABC website. Copied and pasted the whole thing in case this one changes too.

-----

Seems there is a conflict whether these alleged terrorists have a connection to US suspects? Fair amount of confusion between articles that are being released, reported, and possibly 'leaked' to the press.

------

If I were Harper I would restrict the flow of information that Canadians are being told! :-) Dratted international press--just can't gag or shut them up!!!

canuck June 4, 2006 - 9:28pm

comparing the 3 tonnes of ammonium nitrate they allegedly seized with the "one tonne" of ammonium nitrate used by McVeigh to blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

McVeigh's bomb contained more than 2 tonnes of ammonium nitrate.

Here’s one link that says the Oklahoma bomb was about two tonnes. Most authoritative sources say 4800 or 5000 pounds. 2 tonnes would be approx 4400 pounds.

That information is readily available on the Internet. Seems like there is some sensationalizing going on by the police?

canuck June 5, 2006 - 12:16am

...mixed numbers out there around the size of the Murrah device. IIRC, the original ballpart estimate was approx. 1600 lbs ANFO. That estimate was revised several times, to the point where it's pretty damned hard to tell what the real number was. I've read a few forensic studies of the damage to the structure that seem to agree on a yield equivalent to 4,000 lbs TNT.

It's important to note that though that's the yield, the actual weight of the charge will probably be different - I recall that most ANFO mixes are somewhat less powerful than the equivalent wieght of TNT, but it varies significantly depending on the skill of the folks doing the mixing. A chunk of the weight of the charge will be taken up by the buffer charges and the fuel oil (i.e., it takes less than 4000 lbs ammonium nitrate to make a 4000 lb charge - I'm not sure what the ratio is by wieght, but if it's about half they may well even have managed to be in the right ballpark).

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 5, 2006 - 12:29pm

The basic chemistry of ANFO detonation is the reaction of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) with a long chain hydrocarbon (CnH2n+2) to form nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water. In an ideal stoichiometrically balanced reaction, ANFO is comprised of approximately 94.3% AN and 5.7% FO by weight. In practice, a slight excess of fuel oil is added, as underdosing results in reduced performance while overdosing merely results in more post-blast fumes. When detonation conditions are optimal, the aforementioned gases are the only products. In practical use, such conditions are impossible to attain, and blasts produce moderate amounts of toxic gases such as carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide, and oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

Ammonium nitrate is widely used as a fertilizer in the agricultural industry.
In the mining industry, the term ANFO specifically describes a mixture of solid ammonium nitrate prills and fuel oil. In this form, it has a bulk density of approximately 840 kg/m3. The density of individual prills is about 1300 kg/m3, while the density of pure crystalline ammonium nitrate is 1700 kg/m3. It is notable that AN prills used for explosive applications are physically different from fertilizer prills; the former contain approximately 20% air. These voids are necessary to sensitize ANFO: they create so-called "hot spots" in which the interaction of the detonation front with a spherical void concentrates energy. Blasting-grade AN prills are typically between 0.9 and 3.0 mm in diameter.

AN is highly hygroscopic; that is, it readily absorbs water from air. Care must be taken with its storage in humid environments, as any absorbed water interferes with its explosive function. AN is also water soluble. If ANFO is to be used in wet mining conditions, considerable effort must be taken to dewater boreholes.

Other explosives based on the AN/FO chemistry exist; the most commonly used are emulsions. They differ from ANFO in the physical form the reactants take. The most notable properties of emulsions are water resistance and higher bulk density.

The popularity of ANFO is largely attributable to its low cost and high stability. In most jurisdictions, ammonium nitrate need not be classified as an explosive for transport purposes; it is merely an oxidizer. Most mines prepare ANFO on-site using the same No. 2 diesel fuel that powers their vehicles. Many fuels can theoretically be used; however, the low volatility and cost of No. 2 diesel makes it ideal.

AN/FO has occasionally been used in terrorist bombings. It has seen use by groups such as the FARC, Provisional IRA, ETA, and various Palestinian extremists. A more sophisticated variant of the standard AN/FO reaction was used in the Oklahoma City bombing. It is noteworthy that improvised bombs made with agricultural-grade AN are less sensitive and less efficient than the explosive-grade variety.

Wikipedia: ANFO

Escher Sketch June 5, 2006 - 2:26pm

...it would appear that the answer is 4,550 lbs of ammonium nitrate, based on McVeigh's own sketch of the device.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/mcveighsketch1.jpg

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 5, 2006 - 3:08pm

Nine nabbed in massive terrorism probe

http://agonist.org/node/31112

Tina June 5, 2006 - 3:53am

Snipers, leg irons, selected evidence, police brass — all calculated to sway the public, lawyers and security experts say

Jun. 5, 2006. 01:00 AM
LINDA DIEBEL
TORONTO STAR STAFF REPORTER

"A good spectacle ... theatrical atmosphere ... like 24 ... an awards show."

Reviews for a Mirvish production, right? Maybe a Hollywood blockbuster or fast-paced new action series on Fox?

Wrong. It's how several lawyers and security experts describe the sombre, indeed frightening, events which transpired in the GTA over the past weekend.

At a news conference Saturday, a dozen of the highest-ranking police officers in the province gathered to announce that an alleged terrorist cell had been shut down before it could explode a truck bomb three times more powerful than the device used in Oklahoma City. They were circumspect about Operation O-Sage, arguing time constraints in the preparation of evidence as well as police procedure.

The anti-terrorism task force was careful about the wording of its news release, saying that the group "took steps to acquire" the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a popular fertilizer used to make bombs. As well, they laid out selected evidence for the photographers and TV crews, showing only "sample" bags of ammonium nitrate.

Meanwhile, under massive police security which included sharpshooters on nearby roofs and tactical squad officers with submachine-guns, suspects were brought in leg irons to the provincial courthouse in Brampton. There, in Room 101, Justice of the Peace John Farnum postponed bail hearings until tomorrow morning.

For the experts contacted by the Star, these events were as much about creating an image for the public as about charging the individuals. And it's an image, they argue, that could hurt the right of the accused — 12 men and five youths — to a fair trial.

Being on message — "on script" as the spin doctors put it — is a concept more easily associated with politicians than police chiefs. But for a veteran of the criminal justice system like Toronto lawyer Walter Fox, it's the obvious lens through which to judge events.

The principal audience, in his view, is the Canadian public.

"Police think they have to present a show of force to advance the public's understanding that these guys are dangerous," said Fox. "Does it prejudice the mind of the public? I think so.

"As a criminal lawyer, I am well aware that police and the prosecution are never stronger than at the moment when they've brought their suspects into court for the first time. I've also learned that the stronger the police seem to be at this point, the more suspicious I become that they don't have a complete case."

Overall, Fox tends to believe that the checks and balances of the justice system will probably win out. David Jacobs, a Toronto lawyer with extensive experience in international human rights law, is less sure.

"The fanfare around the arrests creates such a theatrical atmosphere one wonders if it is necessary for the enforcement of justice.... It raises the emotional level without necessarily shedding any light," he said.

In Brampton Saturday, lawyer Anser Farooq, who represents five of the accused, clearly saw the image of snipers on the roof and police armed to the teeth as negative to his clients. "This is ridiculous," he told the Star. "They've got soldiers here with guns. This is going to completely change the atmosphere."

Inside, lawyer Rocco Galati, representing two suspects, complained to Farnum about the leg irons and armed officers in the courtroom, adding: "I do not feel safe with an automatic weapon facing in my direction."

Police evidence was carefully chosen for the news conference, held at the Toronto Congress Centre by the RCMP-led National Security Enforcement Team.

The chief speaker was RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell, and lined up behind him were chiefs of police from Toronto, York, Durham and Peel regions, as well as representatives from the Ontario Provincial Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

"When I saw all that brass lined up with every cop in southern Ontario and Canada telling us what a wonderful job they had done, I thought it was like an awards show," said Fox. "Everybody will tell you it's standard but they are all working to influence the public."

He had questions, as did Jacobs, about exactly how three tonnes of ammonium nitrate were "acquired" by the suspects. The Star has learned that when investigators monitoring the men found out about the alleged purchase of the fertilizer, they intervened before delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance.

Jacobs advised vigilance in seeing what comes out in court about how far police went. He said that the courts have been drawing a line past which law enforcement officers can't go without being seen as having induced the commission of a criminal offence.

He found it interesting that police referred to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing where 168 people died in an explosion at a federal building. He said that if, for example, police arranged for delivery of the ammonium nitrate, it would shed a different light on proceedings.

"In Oklahoma City, there was no suggestion police were involved," said Jacobs, adding that there are a number of important unanswered questions in the investigation.

Jacobs also criticized police for linking the suspects to Al Qaeda, the terrorist group responsible for the 9/11 attacks, without providing evidence. Police said that cell members were "inspired" by Al Qaeda.

Fox chuckled at the way evidence was presented, notably the use of similar bags of ammonium nitrate, not the actual evidence.

Watching it on TV, he said, he had the sense of reading an old crime pulp magazine from the '50s, with lines like: "At a location similar to the one pictured above, the following events took place ..."

more

Tina June 5, 2006 - 4:18am

Plot began in chat room

CSIS monitored discussions on bombing targets `Training camp' visit turning point for investigators

Nicolaas Van Rijn | June 5 | Toronto

The Toronto Star
- For most Canadians, ammonium nitrate — even after it was used to destroy the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people, including dozens of kids in a daycare centre — is nothing much more than a commonly used plant fertilizer.

Farmers buy and use it by the tonne, mixing it into the soil to ensure a bountiful crop.

But mix ammonium nitrate with the inflammatory rhetoric of an Internet chat room, and it instantly acquires the potential to become something entirely different, needing only the addition of a little fuel oil to turn it into a lethal bomb.

So when a shadowy group of disaffected urban youth began talking in an Internet chat room in the fall of 2004, espousing anti-Western views, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service was listening.

The spy agency, and an alphabet soup of other security agencies across the continent, closely monitor such sites, where talk may sometimes turn to buildings and bombs and bringing global jihad home to North America, to Canada.

Often it's just that — talk — but when CSIS began monitoring the sites allegedly used by some of the 17 men and youths arrested on terrorism-related charges in a sweeping series of raids across the GTA Friday evening, the Canadian spy agency heard enough to remain interested, and increased surveillance of the group.

[Comment: I have a feeling that this episode is going to end up being mentioned in the debate over electronic surveillance in the United States, particularly if this is how they really made the initial pickup. ~ JPD]

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 5, 2006 - 3:24pm

How would you like to be driving down the road and see this guy in your headlights?

Or be entering a courthouse or other public building and be greeted by this guy?

----



What are earth are they doing with machine guns outside buildings—who are they going to mow down with these things?

Once saw something similar going into a bank in Mexico—never went back to that country because of it. These heavily armed guards aren’t needed for security—a gun in a holster is more than adequate. What are those packages he has strapped to his legs? He looks like an alien creature with that antennae sticking out of the side of his head.

I do remember seeing armed troops in Montreal when civil liberties were suspended because of Trudeau’s Emergency Measures Act. Hundreds were arrested and thrown in jail who had nothing to do with the FLQ. The question we have to ask ourselves is what civil liberties are we willing to give up for the Anti-Terrorism Act? I’m not willing to part with any of mine. Won’t get a passport with a chip or a National ID card that has a tracking device. And I will insist that the government roll back the spying they are doing on me on my computer, email, telephone and other records that violate my right to privacy. Throw away those freedoms and it invites a military society that is ruled by guns instead of laws.

The response to terrorism should be measured and not endanger the public’s ability to live peaceably among the population. Until now, I regarded the police as a positive influence in the communities. They're now turning into scare mongers and people I'd run away from when I saw them. He looks like he'd be pleased to stomp the life out of me with his huge, ugly, black boots. The black eyes of the guard outside is equally threatening. What's next, armed troops in the cities?

Nor was I impressed with seeing these young defendants in leg irons--they've only be accused--they have been found guilty of nothing. The presumption of innocence is a very important ingredient--the onus is on the prosecution to 'prove' their allegations. If the Anti-terrorism Act they're using to prosecute these individuals is too loose to protect the concept of innocence, God help us all because we could be next.

Betcha if they seized my computer, I could also be accused and possibly found guilty because of statements I've made--not once has there ever been an overt act in my life that imperilled another person. But given free access and a microscope that examines my thoughts, there have been dark moments. The prosecution has confiscated the defendants' computers and will use the information they find on them. Who decided they had the right to take them and use their own words against them?

canuck June 5, 2006 - 5:23pm

...think? Have you considered that when you comment on how a police constable, even one that has the audacity to be a tactical officer armed with a submachine gun, would supposedly be pleased to stomp the life out of you without valid cause that that might be a comment about your mindset, not his? It's my informed opinion that the guys on the tactical teams armed with the submachine guns are the guys that are least likely to end up shooting someone else, once one takes into account that they end up in the more extreme policing situations by the nature of their duties. They've the better training and doctrine, etc. etc. - where things go sideways and people get shot is quite frequently when the guy in the scout car gets thrown into a dynamic situation without warning and runs out of options.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 6:31am

do you think they went a little overboard? When do color coded alerts start?

Tina June 6, 2006 - 8:08am

...decides to come to the court house carrying a suicide bomb, so as to give his colleagues the martyrdom that they aspire to rather than letting them rot in jail? Dunno about anybody else, but I'd sure rather that there be officers with MP-5s there so that they can shoot the guy quite precisely in the head from a nice safe distance. Any police officer with any sense that sees an elevated chance of needing a firearm gets a shoulder arm just as quick as they can. Handguns are carried because of the necessity of having a small arm constantly on one's person for policing duties, not because they're particularly effective in a gunfight compared to other weapons. Given that the downside to this is that the public might actually have to see a scary gun carried by a tactical officer, frankly I think that public can just cowboy the heck up and deal with it.

Is it at least partially theatre? Yes. Given that the Canadian public has had its head firmly up its ass on terrorism for a period measured in decades, a little theatre's not a bad thing, IMNSHO.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 11:50am

They'll undoubtedly be carrying a great big "under my clothes I'm wearing a suicide vest" sign visible from that nice safe distance allowing a positive ID so we can be certain they aren't a Brazilian electrician before executing them.

Escher Sketch June 6, 2006 - 12:04pm

...rather than some chance, me I'll pick my plan. Or perhaps we can just try to subdue them with sarcasm, I'm sure that'll work.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 12:07pm

Okay.

Since September 11th, 2001, security forces inside Britain and America looking for terrorists have collectively discharged several dozen rounds in the course of their duties. Can you give me an example of a single bullet that has wound up in a terrorist yet?

Escher Sketch June 6, 2006 - 12:13pm

...to concentrate on what's happened in Canada. Have any bullets ended up flying because of any of this? No.

More pertinently to your specific question, I can think of two shootings in the UK - what specific American examples are you thinking of?

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 1:47pm

Man killed after bomb claim at airport

Thursday, December 8, 2005 Posted: 0141 GMT (0941 HKT)

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A 44-year-old U.S. citizen who claimed to have a bomb was shot and killed when air marshals opened fire on a boarding bridge at the Miami airport, several sources told CNN. No bomb was found.

...A passenger, Mary Gardner, told WTVJ in Miami that the man ran frantically down the aisle from the rear of the plane, arms flailing, and that the woman accompanying him said that her husband was bipolar and had not taken his medication, according to The Associated Press.

After he got off the plane in Miami and went through customs, he got on the Orlando-bound plane and said he had a bomb, Air Marshal Service spokesman Dave Adams said. (Read about air marshals being taught to avoid risk)

Air marshals asked him to get off the plane, which he did, but when they asked him to put his bag down, he refused, Adams said. Alpizar then approached the marshals in an aggressive manner, at which point two or three shots were fired, he said.

link

Although my question was "can you give an example of a terrorist that has been shot", rather than the related question "how many times now since Sept 11 have American/British law enforcement types screwed the pooch and shot a civilian thinking they were a terrorist?".

Escher Sketch June 6, 2006 - 2:30pm

..."security forces inside Britain and America looking for terrorists have collectively discharged several dozen rounds in the course of their duties" - having forgotten about Mr. Alpizar, I was trying to figure out which instance(s) you were thinking of for the United States.

I guess my comment would be that I think the dichotomy that you've set up between shooting innocents and shooting terrorists is a false one - the situation that everyone strives for is shooting no one, terrorist or innocent. How many arrests have been made without anyone, terrorist or innocent, getting shot? I can think of a fairly large number. As it's happened we've had one instance where incomplete information was passed and an innocent man was killed, one instance where a man was apparently shot and wounded by an AD, and one where an apparently unbalanced individual acted very unwisely and was killed by virtue of his actions. Would it be better somehow if a terrorist had been shot in some other event? I don't think so.

The question in my mind as it pertains to this discussion is whether it was reasonable that the officers in those circumstances were armed as they were and whether it was reasonable that they used lethal force in response to a perceived threat. I don't think that one has the slightest hope of making a coherent argument that officers involved in these three circumstances shouldn't have been armed as they were - that said, should things have been handled differently in some of these cases? Unquestionably yes, given that civilians that these officers had sworn to protect were accidentally killed, but those events simply don't flow merely from the fact that the officers were armed.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 3:26pm

I never took you for one wanting a militarized authoratative state. I'm not trying to make fun of you but some of us in the US are used to seeing and questioning any big show of force. Too many false alarms and color coded alerts.

Tina June 6, 2006 - 12:28pm

...officers on the streets around a courthouse when potentially dangerous subjects are being arraigned necessarily constitutes a manifestation of a militarized state. I can think of probably a dozen occasions when I've seen coverage of tactical officers performing these sorts of duties without folks even blinking (every time we bust some big group of Hells or have a press conference with 150 kg of coke, there are those same tactical officers). For some reason folks are up in arms about this specific instance - me, based on my long familiarity with the detached Canadian attitude towards international terrorism, I think it's a manifestation of our steadfast denial that such things really present a threat to us.

You guys had too many coded alerts and false alarms - our guys have been working in the shadows, where such work properly belongs. That said, just because it's been happening in the shadows, it doesn't mean that it hasn't been happening - if these guys are to get their day in court in a safe and timely manner the periodic appearance of armed officers is perhaps something that the public is just going to have to put up with. If they want to say how threatened that makes them feel, that's their right, but based on my appreciation of the tactical situation and the training and discipline of the officers involved, frankly I think that's something that says more about the public and how poorly they understand what makes those officers tick than anything else.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 1:42pm

with the professional low key systematic way this was handled they would not want pictures of govt snipers and open weapons displays pasted all over the press. I wondered if they were there in case of the possible missing persons or protection for them from the types that vandalised the mosque.

Tina June 6, 2006 - 2:04pm

...and that means it needs to be highly visible. Part of it also is admittedly theatre serving to reassure the public and shake down the budget gods, but it's mostly a deterrant to any stupidity while these guys are having their time in front of the courts.

"We declared war on terror, it's not even a noun, so, good luck. After we defeat it, I'm sure we'll take on that bastard ennui." - Jon Stewart.

JustPlainDave June 6, 2006 - 2:12pm

and like to play dress-up. 'Twas ever thus.

"Mission Accomplished!"

Doug Richardson June 6, 2006 - 9:13pm

The eqivalent NYPD guys that can be seen at Wall and Broad Street in New York every weekday have the automatic weapons, the flack jackets and the rest of the kit including helmets.

I remember travelling in Europe in the 80's and being somewhat unnerved by seeing police at the airports with automatic weapons. Now, it is just de riguer all over. I agree with JPD that these guys,despite the scary weapons, are by by their training less likely to be a threat to ordinary citizens on account of their intense training.

Mark June 6, 2006 - 9:43pm

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